We would like to thank the ADL staff and proprietors of youtube.com for censoring the videos uploaded about the deceased Dr. William Luther Pierce, founder of the National Alliance.

Anti-Semitism Censored by Youtube.com: http://www.youtube.com/

This is the strongest, most effective anti-abortion video I’ve ever seen….there were German citizens who turned their back on the death camps in their own community. They were appalled when they were forced to “tour” them when American troops liberated them. Would YOU turn your back on a holocost going on in YOUR community?

Please watch this award-winning documentary!

It’ll knock your socks off!

Got this email from a friend of mine who lives very near where the fires in Southeast Texas whirled through a couple of weeks ago. I hope the author doesn’t mind that I reprinted this heartening first hand account of how communities come together in times of trouble and how the nanny govt screws things up…. rich g

By Cynthia Thomas Hinson 5:31pm Sep 16

Here’s some stories you won’t hear about the Tri-county fire in Montgomery, Grimes, and Waller County the weeks following Labor Day, 2011. Although Kenna promises to write a book.

My neighbor across the road has a sister named Kenna. Memorial Day, when she saw the huge column of smoke over our homes, she left a birthday party at my neighbor’s house to meet with her friend Tara at the Baseball complex in Magnolia. She called the owner of the complex and got permission to use the warehouse there as a staging area for donations for the fire fighting effort.

They put a notice out on facebook that they were going to be taking donations on their facebook pages. That night as they were setting up tables and organizing, News 2 Houston came by and saw the activity, investigated and left with the phone numbers and a list of suggested donations. The facebook notice propagated faster than the fire. By dawn they had 20 volunteers, bins, forklifts, and donations were pouring in. I stopped by with my pitiful little bags of nasal wash and eye wash, and was amazed.

There must have been 20 trucks in the lot, offloading cases of water, pallets of Gatorade, and people lined up out the door with sacks of beef jerky, baby wipes, underwear, socks, and you name it. School buses and trailers from many counties around were there offloading supplies, students forming living chains to pass stuff into the bins for transport to the command center and staging areas. If the firefighters had requested it, it was there. What do you give the guy out there fighting the fire that might engulf your home? Anything he or she wants. Including chewing tobacco and cigarettes.

Kenna moved on to the Unified Command Post at Magnolia West High school . She looked at what the fire fighters needed, and she made calls and set it up.

Mattress Mac donated 150 beds. Two class rooms turned into barracks kept quiet and dark for rest.

The CEO of HEB donated 2 semi trailers full of supplies, and sent a mobile commercial kitchen at no charge to feed all the workers, but especially our firefighters, 3 hot meals a day.

An impromptu commissary was set up, anything the firefighters had requested available at no charge. As exhausted firefighters (most of them from local VFDs with no training or experience battling wildfires) and workers came into the school after long hours of hard labor, dehydrated, hungry, covered with soot and ash, they got what they needed. They were directed through the commissary, where they got soap, eye wash and nasal spray, candy, clean socks and underwear, and then were sent off to the school locker rooms for a shower. HEB then fed them a hot meal and they got 8 hours sleep in a barracks, then another hot meal, another pass through the commissary for supplies to carry with them out to lines, including gloves, safety glasses, dust masks and snacks, and back they went.

One of the imported crew from California came into Unified Command and asked where the FEMA Powerbars and water were. He was escorted to the commissary and started through the system. He was flabbergasted. He said FEMA never did it like this. Kenna replied, ”Well, this is the way we do it in Texas .”

Fire fighting equipment needed repair? The auto shop at the High School ran 24/7 with local mechanics volunteering, students, and the firefighters fixing the equipment. Down one side of the school, the water tankers lined up at the fire hydrants and filled with water. Down the other side there was a steady parade of gasoline tankers filling trucks, dozers, tankers, cans, chain saws, and vehicles.

Mind you, all of this was set up by 2 Moms, Kenna and Tara, with a staff of 20 simple volunteers, most of them women who had sons, daughters, husbands, and friends on the fire lines. Someone always knew someone who could get what they needed- beds, mechanics, food, space. Local people using local connections to mobilize local resources made this happen. No government aid. No Trained Expert.

At one point the fire was less than a mile from the school, and everyone but hose volunteers were evacuated. The fire was turned. The Red Cross came in, looked at what they were doing, and quietly went away to set up a fire victim relief center nearby. They said they couldn’t do it any better.

Then FEMA came in and told those volunteers and Kenna that they had to leave, FEMA was here now. Kenna told them she worked for the firefighters, not them. They were obnoxious, bossy, got in the way, and criticized everything. The volunteers refused to back down and kept doing their job, and doing it well. Next FEMA said the HEB supplies and kitchen had to go, that was blatant commercialism. Kenna said they stayed. They stayed. FEMA threw a wall eyed fit about chewing tobacco and cigarettes being available in the commissary area. Kenna told them the firefighters had requested it, and it was staying. It stayed. FEMA got very nasty and kept asking what organization these volunteers belonged to- and all the volunteers told them “Our community”.

FEMA didn’t like that and demanded they make up a name for themselves. One mother remarked “They got me at my boiling point!” and suddenly the group was “212 Degrees”. FEMA’s contribution? They came in the next day with red shirts embroidered with “212 Degrees”, insisting the volunteers had to be identified, never realizing it was a slap in their face. Your tax dollars at work – labeling volunteers with useless shirts and getting in the way.

The upshot? A fire that the experts from California (for whom we are so grateful there are no words) said would take 2-3 weeks to get under control was 100% contained in 8 days. There was so much equipment and supplies donated, 3 container trucks are loaded with the excess to go and set up a similar relief center for the fire fighters in Bastrop .

The local relief agencies have asked people to stop bringing in donations of clothing, food, household items, and pretty much everything else because they only have 60 displaced households to care for, and there is enough to supply hundreds. Again, excess is going to be shipped to Bastrop , where there are 1500 displaced households. Wish we could send Kenna, too, but she has to go back to her regular job.

And that’s the way we do it in Texas !!!

In 7 years of casual blogging, none of my posts have garnered more responses than the AP photo which captured the “The Face of Evil“ on 9/11.

The photographer should have gotten a Pulitzer Prize for this take, but the personification of evil is denigrated these days and the elitists would most likely pretend an image like this is not even worth mentioning and indeed should not be mentioned because it implies evil may exist which would allude to the existence of God.

Well, we can’t have that!

So people deny God and evil.

Still, many people are fascinated with good and evil because both are presented to us each and every day. It’s how we react to them is what’s important.

When you see the face of evil, is that the side you want to be on?

The Canada Free Press routinely publishes thoughtful pieces you would never find in our left wing media. A sterling example is Kelley O’Connell’s excellent article titled, Sources of Madness—The Insane Thinkers of the Modern Age.

O’Connell asks, “What is more characteristic of our modern day than crazy and wholly indefensible “policies”? Indeed!

Anything I might write about this brilliant piece would be an injustice to his work.

If you’re unwilling to read about some of the founders/philosophers of this modern age in the first 3/4ths of his article, it would be a shame, but you could skip to his conclusion and get a pretty good grasp of what he has to say.

We might have been okay had we not thrown out common sense a generation or 2 ago. Pity! Especially for those who never learned to think for themselves.

Not sure about the spelling of that B word and yes, this post couldn’t be more self-congratulatory, but being here after 7 years this month, is pretty cool.

This year wasn’t a real active one in this space and I attribute that to Face Book. Posting at FB became my substitute for blogging, but I’ve decided to become more active up here. If for no other reason, blogging provides an outlet for journaling and that’s a good thing.

Thanks for stopping by…come back again soon!

People in droves are beginning to realize that President Obama is probably the worst president in post World War II history. That’s no longer even controversial. What may be controversial is what the American Thinker lays down today in one of their featured articles, titled, The Anti-American President.

George Orwell said it:

“Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them.”</

Leo M. Frank, Plaintiff in Error, vs. State of Georgia, Defendant in Error. In Error from Fulton Superior Court at the July Term, 1913

Murder Trial Testimony in Adobe PDF format: http://www.leofrank.org/library/georgia-archives/

In the Supreme Court of Georgia
FALL TERM, 1913

LEO M. FRANK
PLAINTIFF IN ERROR
VS.
STATE OF GEORGIA
DEFENDANT IN ERROR

In Error from Fulton Superior Court
at the July Term, 1913

BRIEF OF THE EVIDENCE

————————————

LEO M. FRANK,
Plaintiff in Error
vs. From Fulton Superior Court.
STATE OF GEORGIA
Defendant in Error

BRIEF OF THE EVIDENCE.

MRS. J. W. COLEMAN, sworn for the State.
I am Mary Phagan’s mother. I last saw her alive on the 26th day of
April, 1913, about a quarter to twelve, at home, at 146 Lindsey Street.
She was getting ready to go to the pencil factory to get her pay envelope.
About 11:30 she ate some cabbage and bread. She left home at a quarter
to twelve. She would have been fourteen years old the first day of June,
was fair complected, heavy set, very pretty, and was extra large for her
age. She had on a lavender dress, trimmed in lace, and a blue hat. She
had dimples in her cheeks.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
The blue hat that is seen here is the hat the little girl had on that
day. It had some pale blue ribbon and some flowers when she left home.
It was a small bunch of little pink flowers right in the center. We live
two blocks from the street car line. There is a store there, at the place
she usually gets on the car, kept by Mrs. Smith. Epps is a neighbor of
ours. He was a friend of Mary’s. He wasn’t no special friend of hers.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

These are the clothes that she wore on the day (State’s Exhibit M.”)

GEORGE EPPS, sworn for the State.

I am fourteen years old. I live right around the corner from Mary
Phagan’s home. I have known her about a year. The last time I saw
her was Saturday morning coming to town on the English Avenue car.
It was about ten minutes to twelve when I first saw her. I left her about
seven minutes after twelve at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta Street.
She had on that hat, parasol and things when I left her. She was going to
the pencil factory to draw her money. She said she was going to see the
parade at Elkin-Watson’s at two o’clock. She never showed up. I
stayed around there until four o’clock and then I went to the ball game.
When I left her at the corner of Forsyth and Marietta, I went under the
bridge to get papers and she went over the bridge to the pencil factory,
about two blocks down Forsyth Street. I sat with Mary on the car.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I know what time it was when I met Mary because I looked at Bry-
ant and Keheley’s clock at the corner of Oliver and Bellwood, where I
caught the car. She caught the car at Oliver and Lindsey and I caught
the car at Oliver and Bell Street. She got on before I did, just one block
before. I didn’t say anything before the Coroner’s jury about seeing a
clock there, but I did see one. I know it was about seven minutes after
twelve when I got off at Marietta Street because I can tell by the sun. I
lived in the country and when I got off I looked at the sun. Mary got off
the street car with me. No, she didn’t ride on to Hunter Street. I am
sure of that. She walked on down to the pencil factory on the right-hand
side of Forsyth Street.

NEWT LEE (colored), sworn for the State.

On the 26th day of April, 1913, I was night watchman at the National
Pencil Factory. I had been night watchman there for about three weeks.
When I began working there, Mr. Frank carried me around and showed
me everything that I would have to do. I would have to get there at six
o’clock on week days, and on Saturday evenings I have to come at five
o’clock. On Friday, the 25th of April, he [Leo Frank] told me “Tomorrow is
a holiday and I want you to come back at four o’clock. I want to get off
a little earlier than I have been getting off.” I got to the factory on Sat-
urday about three or four minutes before four. The front door was not
locked. I pushed it open, went on in and got to the double door there. I
was paid off Friday night at six o’clock. It was put out that everybody
would be paid off then. Every Saturday when I get off he gives me the
keys at twelve o’clock, so that if he happened to be gone when I get back
there at five or six o’clock I could get in, and every Monday morning I
return the keys to him. The front door has always been unlocked on
previous Saturday afternoons. After you go inside and come up about
middle ways of the steps, there are some double doors there. It was
locked on Saturday when I got there. Have never found it that way be-
fore. I took my keys and unlocked it. When I went upstairs I had a
sack of bananas and I stood to the left of that desk like I do every Sat-
urday. I says like I always do, “Alright, Mr. Frank,” and he come bust-
ling out of his office. He had never done that before. He always called
me when he wanted to tell me anything and said “Step here a minute,
Newt.” This time he came up rubbing his hands and says, “Newt, I am
sorry I had you come so soon, you could have been at home sleeping, I
tell you what you do, you go out in town and have a good time.” He
had never let me off before that. I could have laid down there in the
shipping room and gone to sleep, and I told him that. He says, “You
needs to have a good time. You go down town, stay an hour and a half
and come back your usual time at six o’clock. Be sure and be back at six
o’clock.” I then went out the door and stayed until about four minutes
to six. When I came back the doors were unlocked just as I left them
and I went and says,” Allright, Mr. Frank,” and he says, What time is
it’?” and I says, “It lacks two minutes of six.” He says, “Don’t punch
yet, there is a few worked today and I want to change the slip.” It took
him twice as long this time than it did the other times I saw him fix it.
He fumbled putting it in, while I held the lever for him and I think he
made some remark about he was not used to putting it in. When Mr.
Frank put the tape in I punched and I went on down-stairs. While I was
down there Mr. Gantt came from across the street from the beer saloon
and says “Newt, I got a pair of old shoes that I want to get upstairs to
have fixed.” I says, “I aint allowed to let anybody in here after six
o’clock. About that time Mr. Frank come busting out of the door and
run into Gantt unexpected and he jumped back frightened. Gantt says,
“I got a pair of old shoes upstairs, have you any objection to my getting
them?” Frank says, “I don’t think they are up there, I think I saw the
boy sweep some up in the trash the other day.” Mr. Gantt asked him
what sort they were and Mr. Frank said “tans.” Gantt says, “Well, I
had a pair of black ones, too.” Frank says, “Well, I don’t know,” and
he dropped his head down just so. Then he raised his head and says,
“Newt, go with him and stay with him and help him find them,” and I
went up there with Mr. Gantt and found them in the shipping room, two
pair, the tans and the black ones. Mr. Frank phoned me that night about
an hour after he left, it was sometime after seven o’clock. He says”How
is everything?” and I says, “Everything is all right so far as I know,”
and he says, “Good-bye.” No, he did not ask anything about Gantt.
Yes, that is the first time he ever phoned to me on a Saturday night, or
at all.
There is a light on the street floor just after you get in the entrance
to the building. The light is right up here where that partition comes
across. Mr. Frank told me when I first went there, “Keep that light
burning bright, so the officers can see in when they pass by.” It wasn’t
burning that day at all. I lit it at six o’clock myself. On Saturdays I
always lit it, but week-days it would always be lit when I got there. On
Saturdays I always got there at five o’clock. This Saturday he got me
there an hour earlier and let me off later. There is a light in the base-
ment down there at the foot of the ladder. He told me to keep that burn-
ing all the time. It has two little chains to it to turn on and turn off the
gas. When I got there on making my rounds at 7 p. m. on the 26th of
April, it was burning just as low as you could turn it, like a lightning
bug. I left it Saturday morning burning bright. I made my rounds reg-
ularly every half hour Saturday night. I punched on the hour and
punched on the half and I made all my punches. The elevator doors on
the street floor and office floor were closed when I got there on Saturday.
They were fastened down just like we fasten them down every other
night. When three o’clock came I went down the basement and when I

went down and got ready to come back I discovered the body there. I
went down to the toilet and when I got through I looked at the dust bin
back to the door to see how the door was and it being dark I picked up
my lantern and went there and I saw something laying there which I
thought some of the boys had put there to scare me, then I walked a little
piece towards it and I seen what it was and I got out of there. I got up the
ladder and called up police station. It was after three o’clock. I carried
the officers down where I found the body. I tried to get Mr. Frank on the
telephone and was still trying when the officers came. I guess I was try-
ing about eight minutes. I saw Mr. Frank Sunday morning at about
seven or eight o’clock. He was coming in the office. He looked down on
the floor and never spoke to me. He dropped his head right down this
way. Mr. Frank was there and didn’t say nothing while Mr. Darley was
speaking to me. Boots Rogers, Chief Lanford, Darley, Mr. Frank and I
were there when they opened the clock. Mr. Frank opened the clock and
said the punches were all right, that I hadn’t missed any punches. I
punched every half hour from six o’clock until three o’clock, which was
the last punch I made. I don’t know whether they took out that slip or
not. On Tuesday night, April 29th at about ten o’clock I had a conver-
sation at the station house with Mr. Frank. They handcuffed me to a
chair. They went and got Mr. Frank and brought him in and he sat
down next to the door. He dropped his head and looked down. We were
all alone. I said, “Mr. Frank, it’s mighty hard for me to be handcuffed
here for something I don’t know anything about.” He said, “What’s
the difference, they have got me locked up and a man guarding me.” I
said, “Mr. Frank, do you believe I committed that crime,” and he said,
“No, Newt, I know you didn’t, but I believe you know something about
it.” I said, “Mr. Frank, I don’t know a thing about it, no more than
finding the body.” He said, “We are not talking about that now, we
will let that go. If you keep that up we will both go to hell,” then the
officers both came in. When Mr. Frank came out of his office that Satur-
day he was looking down and rubbing his hands. I have never seen him
rubbing his hands that way before.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know how many times I told this story before. Everybody
was after me all the time down there at the station house. Yes, I testi-
fied at the coroner’s inquest and I told them there that Mr. Frank jumped
back like he was frightened when he saw Mr. Gantt. I am sure I told
them, and I told them that Mr. Frank jumped back and held his head
down. I didn’t say before the coroner that he said he had given one of
the pair of shoes of Mr. Gantt to one of the boys; they got that wrong.
On Saturdays I had to wake up usually and get to the factory at twelve
o’clock. This time Mr. Frank told me to get back at four. I did say be-
fore the coroner that he was looking down when he came out of his office.
I told them also that there was a place in that building when I could go
to sleep, but they didn’t ask me where.

When you come in the front door of the factory, you can go right on
by the elevator and right down into the basement, anybody could do it.
The fact that the double doors on the steps were locked wouldn’t prevent
anybody from going in the basement. That would only prevent anybody
from up stairs from going into the basement unless they went by the ele-
vator or by unlocking those double doors. All of the doors to the factory
were unlocked when I got back there Saturday afternoon about 6 o’clock,
the first floor, the second floor, the third floor and the fourth floor. Any-
body could come right in from the street and go all over the factory with-
out Mr. Frank in his office knowing anything about it. The doors are
never closed at all. That is a great big, old, rambling place up there.
The shutters, the blinds to the factory were all closed that day because
it was a holiday, excepting two or three on the first floor which I closed
up that night. It’s a very dark place when the shutters are closed. That
is why we have to burn a light. There is a light on the first floor near the
clock, it burns all the time because that is a dark spot. There are two
clocks, one punches to a hundred, the other punches to two hundred, be-
cause there are more than a hundred employees. I punch both of them.
About Mr. Frank and Mr. Gantt, they had had a difficulty and I knew
that Mr. Frank didn’t want him in there. Mr. Frank had told me “Lee,
I have discharged Mr. Gantt, I don’t want him in here, keep him out of
here,” and he had said,” When you see him hanging around here, watch
him.” That is the reason I thought Mr. Frank was startled when he saw
Mr. Gantt. Mr. Gantt is a great big fellow, nearly seven feet. When he
went out I watched him as he went to the beer saloon and I went on up-
stairs. He left the factory about half past six. I went through the ma-
chine room every time I made a punch that night. I went to the ladies’
dressing room every half hour that night until three o’clock. I went all
over the building every half hour, excepting the basement. I went down
to the basement every hour that night, but not all the way back. Mr.
Frank had instructed me to go over the building every half hour and he
said go down in the basement once in awhile. He said go back far enough
to see the door was closed. He told me to look out for the dust bin be-
cause that is where we might have a fire and to see that the back door is
shut and to go over all the building every half hour. No, he didn’t give
me any different instructions on that Saturday, he didn’t tell me not to
go in the basement or in the metal department. He allowed me to carry
out the instructions just like I had been doing before. Yes, if I had gone
back to find out whether that door was closed or not, I would have found
the body, but I could see if the door was open, because there was a light
back there. No, it wasn’t open that night. It was shut when I found the
body. It was about ten minutes after I telephoned the police that they
arrived. When I was down there I was close enough to the door to see it
was shut, there was a light in front of it. There was no light between
the body and the door. It was dark back there. The body was about
sixty feet from that door. If the back door had been open I could have
seen that big light back there in the alley. The back door was closed

when I found the body. The first time I went down the basement that
night was seven o’clock. I went just a little piece beyond the dark, so I
could see whether there was any fire down there. That’s what I was
looking for. Yes, I could tell whether the door was open from there. No,
I didn’t go back as far as they found the body, I didn’t go back that far
at all during the night. The reason I went that far back when I saw the
body was because I went to the closet. There are two closets on the sec-
ond floor, one on the third floor and one on the fourth floor. I didn’t see
the lady’s hat or shoe when I went down to that little place with my lan-
tern, nor the parasol. My lantern was dirty. I was sitting down there,
after I had punched, on the seat, set my lantern on the outside. When I
got through I picked up my lantern, I walked a few steps down that way,
I seed something over there, about that much of the lady’s leg and dress.
I guess I walked about three or four feet, or five or six. I guess the body
was about ten feet from the closet. As to what made me look in that
direction from the closet, because I wanted to look that way. I picked
up the lantern to go down there to see the dust bin, to see whether there
was any fire there. The dust bin was to the right of me. When I was sit-
ting down there the dust bin was not entirely hid behind the partition. I
could see where the dust came down. The balance of the night in order
to see whether there was any fire in the dust bin or not I went twenty or
twenty-five feet from the scuttle hole, and when I was down in the closet
I had to go at least ten feet to see whether or not there was any fire in the
dust bin. I would have gone further if I hadn’t discovered the body.
When I saw the body, the closest I ever got to it was about six feet. I
was holding my lantern in my hand. I just saw the feet. When I first
saw it I was about ten feet from it. As to how far the body was from
where I was sitting in the closet, it was not less than ten feet and not
more than thirty. I stood and looked at it to see whether or not it was a
natural body. When I first got there I didn’t think it was a white woman
because her face was so dirty and her hair was so crinkled and there were
white spots on her face. When the police came back upstairs they said
it was a white girl. I think I reported to the police that it was a white
woman. She was lying on her back with her face turned kinder to one
side. I could see her forehead. I saw a little blood on the side of her
head that was turned next to me. The blood was on the right side of her
head. I am sure she was lying on her back. Mr. Frank had told me if
anything serious happened to call up the police and if anything like fire
to call up fire department. I already knew the number of the station
house. I did say at the coroner’s inquest that it took Mr. Frank longer
to put the tape on this time than it did before. I did not say it took twice
as long at the coroner’s inquest, because they didn’t ask me. I didn’t
pay any attention to him the first time he put the tape on. The reason
the last time I know it took him longer because I held the lever and had
to move it backwards and forwards. When I was in the basement one of
the policemen read the note that they found. They read these words,
“The tall, black, slim negro did this, he will try to lay it on the night”

and when they got to the word “night” I said “They must be trying to
put it off on me.” I didn’t say, “Boss, that’s me.”

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The first time I saw Mr. Frank put any tape on, he didn’t say any-
thing about it being any trouble. The last time he put it on, he said
something about that he wasn’t used to putting it on. I was holding the
lever there and he got it on twice and he had put it on wrong and lie
would have to slip it out and put it back. When Mr. Frank came out
rubbing his hands, he came out of his inner office into the outer office and
from there in front of the clock. I did not go down in the basement as
far as the boiler during the night, except when I discovered the body.
The officers talked to me the whole time. I didn’t get to sleep hardly,
day or night. Just the time I would get ready to go to sleep, here they
was after me. Then I would go back to my cell, stay a while and then
another would come and get me. They carried me where I could sleep,
but they wouldn’t let me stay there long enough to sleep. I didn’t get
no sleep until I went over to the jail, and I didn’t get no sleep at jail for
about two weeks. That was before the coroner’s inquest, when I was
first arrested. When I went back to the jail I was treated nicely. As to
who talked to me longer Mr. Frank or Black, Mr. Black did. Mr. Arnold
talked to me longer than Mr. Frank did on April 29th. In the southwest
corner is some toilets for men and women.

L. S. DOBBS, sworn for the State.
I am a sergeant of police. On the morning of April 27th, at about
3:25 a call came from the pencil factory that there was a murder up there.
We went down in Boots Rogers’ automobile. When we got there the
door was locked. We knocked on the door and in about two minutes the
negro came down the steps and opened up the door and said there was a
woman murdered in the basement. We went through a scuttle hole, a
small trapdoor. The negro lead the way back in the basement, to a par-
tition on the left, leading from the elevator. The basement is about
twenty feet wide. The negro lead the way back about one hundred fifty
feet and we found the body. The girl was lying on her face, not directly
lying on her stomach, with the left side on the ground, the right side up
just a little. We couldn’t tell by looking at her whether she was white or
black, only by her golden colored hair. They turned her over and her face
was full of dirt and dust. They took a piece of paper and rubbed the dirt
off of her face, and we could tell then that it was a white girl. I pulled up
her clothes and we could tell by the skin of her knee that she was a white
girl. Her face was punctured, full of holes and was swollen and black.
She had a cut on the left side of her head as if she had been struck and
there was a little blood there. The cord was around her neck, sunk into
the flesh. She also had a piece of her underclothing around her neck.
The cord was still tight around her neck. The tongue was protruding

just the least bit. I began to look around and found a couple of notes.
The cord was pulled tight and had cut into the flesh and tied just as tight
as it could be. The underclothing around the neck was not tight. There
wasn’t much blood on her head. It was dry on the outside. I stuck my
finger under the hair and it was a little moist. This scratch pad (State’s
Exhibit “H”) was also lying on the ground, close to the body. The body
was lying with the head towards Forsyth Street, the head being near the
partition. I found the notes under the sawdust, lying near the head.
The body was that of Mary Phagan. The scratch pad was lying near the
notes. They were all right close together.
(Witness indicates on diagram of the State where body was found
and identifies different parts of the building on the diagram. Witness
states that diagram is a (State’s Exhibit A) fair representation of the
parts identified by him, i. e., main floor and stairs, basement, boiler, par-
tition in basement, spot where notes and body were found, and of the
entire building.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
We arrived at the factory about 3:30. Lee told us it was a white
woman. It took us some time to determine whether it was a white wo-
man or not. We didn’t know until the dust was removed from her face
and we pulled up the clothes and looked at the skin. We did not know
it prior to that time. We had a lantern with us. One of the officers had
a flashlight. Both of the notes were near her head. I don’t think they
were over six or eight inches apart. No, the one written on the scratch
pad was not attached to the pad when I found it. It was laying about ten
or twelve inches from it, right close together, and about eight or ten
inches from her head was the furthest note. I found the white one first,
on the white pad. I discovered the notes on the white paper and the
scratch pad about the same time. It was possibly five or ten minutes
before I found the other. There was a pile of trash near the boiler where
this hat was found and paper and pencils were down there, too. The hat
was on the trash pile, so was the shoe. They were right close together
on the trash pile. Everything was gone off of it, ribbons and all. It
looked like she had been dragged by her feet on her face. I thought I
found indications that she had been dragged in the basement, but I
couldn’t be positive. As to whether Newt Lee could have seen the body
from where he was standing I would think that he could have seen the
body from where he was standing; I would think that he could have seen
the feet and the bulk of the body, he couldn’t hardly have seen the head.
I don’t think he could have seen enough of it to have seen what it was
without coming up to it. I made an experiment in the day time to see
whether he could see the body or not, and I found he could see the feet,
you could see the bulk. Unless he was looking directly for someone, I
don’t think he could see it. The place where I thought I saw someone
dragged was right in front of the elevator, directly back. It began im-
mediately in front of the elevator, right at the bottom of the shaft. The

hat was possibly nearer the elevator than the shoe. That was a dirt floor
and cinders on it scattered over the dirt. I thought the places on her face
had been made from dragging. I think I saw a little blood on the under-
clothing. I did not testify before the coroner that the blood ran a little
when we moved the body. I didn’t say it was liquid. The blood was dry.
The little trail where I thought showed the body was dragged went
straight on down where the girl was found. It was a continuous trail.
The finger joints on her hand worked a little. Back door was shut, staple
had been pulled. The lock was locked still, but the staple had been drawn
out. It was a sliding door with a bar across the door, but the bar had
been taken down. It looked like the staple had been recently drawn. I
was reading one of the notes to Lee, with the following words: “A tall
black negro did this, he will try to lay it on the night” and when I got to
the word “night,” Lee says, “That means the night watchman.” I had
just said the “night” I and he said” That means the night watchman.” I
think the underclothes were torn, not cut, but I am not positive.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
It was about one hundred fifty feet from the ladder to where we
found the body. The ribbon I found was not on the hat, it was on the
hair. We made another experiment at night to see whether Newt Lee
could have seen the body from where he stood. We placed a bulk about
the size of an ordinary body about the same position that this body was
found in and you could see the bulk of the body by looking carefully by
standing at the spot Newt Lee said he had seen it. A man couldn’t get
down that ladder with another person. It is a difficult matter for one
person to get through the scuttle hole. The signs of dragging that I saw
was right at the bottom of the elevator shaft, on the south side of the ele-
vator. The signs of dragging came right around the elevator straight
back east of the ladder, it started east of the ladder. A man going down
the ladder to the rear of the basement would not go in front of elevator
where dragging was. The hasp appeared to have been pulled straight
out of the door, on the inside, it was not bent. The body was cold and
stiff. Hands folded across the breast. I didn’t find any blood on the
ground or on the sawdust around where we found the body. Yes, the
hasp is bent the least bit. When we got there Sunday morning, I think
the elevator was on the second floor. We tried to make Lee run the ele-
vator, but he said he couldn’t do it.
FURTHER RE-DIRECT.
I found the handkerchief about ten feet towards the rear beyond the
body on a sawdust pile.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I found it possibly ten or fifteen minutes after we found the body.
The handkerchief was bloody just like it is now.

RECALLED FOR THE STATE.

The trap door leading up from the basement was closed when we got
there. There were cobwebs and dust back there.

J. N. STARNES, sworn for the State.

I am a city officer. Went to the pencil company’s place of business
between five and six o’clock, April 27th. The pencil company is located
in Fulton County, Georgia. That is where the body was found. The
staple to the back door looked as if it had been prized out with a pipe
pressed against the wood. There was a pipe there that fitted the inden-
tation on the wood. I called Mr. Frank on the telephone, and told him I
wanted him to come to the pencil factory right away. He said he hadn’t
had any breakfast. He asked where the night watchman was. I told
him it was very necessary for him to come and if he would come I would
send an automobile for him, and I asked Boots Rogers to go for him. I
didn’t tell him what had happened, and he didn’t ask me. Mr. Frank
appeared to be nervous; this was indicated by his manner of speaking to
Mr. Darley; he was in a trembling condition. I was guarded with him in
my conversation over the phone. About a week afterwards I went to the
factory and had the night watchman there, Mr. Hendricks, to show me
about the clock. He took a new slip and put it in the clock and punched
the slip all the way around in less than five minutes (State’s Exhibit P).
I got some cord on the second floor of the pencil factory, the knots in
these cords are similar to the knots in this cord (State’s Exhibit C). On
the floor right at the opposite corner, what might be called the northwest
corner of the dressing room, on Monday morning, April 28th, I saw
splotches that looked like blood about a foot and a half or two feet from
the end of the dressing room, some of which I chipped up. It looked like
splotches of blood and something had been thrown there and in throw-
ing it had spread out and splattered. There was no great amount of it.
I should judge that the area around these spots was a foot and a half.
The splotch looked as if something had been swept over it, some white
substance. There is a lot of that white stuff in the metal department.
It looked like blood. I found a nail fifty feet this side of the metal room
toward the elevator on the second floor that looked like it had blood on
the top of it. It was between the office and the double doors. I chipped
two places off on the back door which looked like they had bloody finger
prints. I don’t know when Frank was arrested. I don’t think he was
arrested on Monday. He was asked to come to the station house on Mon-
day. It takes not over three minutes to walk from Marietta Street at the
corner of Forsyth across the viaduct and through Forsyth Street down
to the pencil factory. Lee was composed at the factory; he never tried
to get away. The door to the stairs from the office floor to the third floor
was barred when I first went up there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am guessing about the time. It wouldn’t take over five minutes to
get off the car, walk to the pencil factory, walk in, walk up the stairs and
back into Mr. Frank’s office. The hasp is bent a little. I heard Boots
Rogers testify at the coroner’s inquest and I testified twice. I did not
correct any statement at the coroner’s inquest that Boots Rogers made.
I am the prosecutor in this case. I cannot give the words of the conver-
sation of the telephone message between myself and Mr. Frank. I could
be mistaken as to the very words he used. It was just a casual telephone
conversation. I don’t know that the splotches that I saw there were
blood. The floor at the ladies’ dressing room is a very dark color. I saw
cord like that in the basement, but it was cut up in pieces. I saw a good
many cords like that all over the factory. I never found the purse, or the
flowers or the ribbon on the little girl’s hat. This diagram (State’s Ex-
hibit A) is a correct diagram of second floor and basement of pencil com-
pany and other places. No. 11 on diagram (State’s Exhibit A) is the
toilets.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I was guarded in what I said over the phone to Mr. Frank though it
was just a conversation between two gentlemen. These pieces of wood
look like what I chipped off the floor. I turned them over to Chief Lan-
ford. (Referring to State’s Exhibit E).

RECALLED FOR THE STATE.
I saw Mr. Rosser at the coroner’s inquest. I never heard him say
anything throughout the hearing.

W. W. ROGERS, sworn for the State.
I am now connected with Judge Girardeau’s court. I was at the sta-
tion house Saturday night, April 26th, and went to the National Pencil
Company’s place of business. It was between five and five thirty that I
heard Mr. Starnes have a conversation over the phone. I heard him say,
“If you will come I will send an automobile after you.” It took us five
or six minutes to get out to Mr. Frank’s residence at 86 E. Georgia Ave-
nue. Mr. Black was with me. Mrs. Frank opened the door. She wore a
heavy bath robe. Mr. Black asked if Mr. Frank was in. Mr. Frank
stepped into the hall through the curtain. He was dressed for the street
with the exception of his collar, tie, coat and hat. He had on no vest.
Mr. Frank asked Mr. Black if anything had happened at the factory.
Mr. Black didn’t answer. He asked me had anything happened at the
factory. I didn’t answer. Mr. Frank said, “Did the night watchman
call up and report anything to you?” Mr. Black said, “Mr. Frank, you
had better get your clothes on and let us go to the factory and see what
has happened.” Mr. Frank said that he thought he dreamt in the morn-

ing about 3 a. m. about hearing the telephone ring. Mr. Black said some-
thing about whiskey to Mrs. Frank in Mr. Frank’s presence. Mrs. Frank
said Mr. Frank hadn’t had any breakfast and would we allow him to get
breakfast. I told Mr. Black that I was hungry myself. Mr. Frank said
let me have a cup of coffee. Mr. Black in a kind of sideways, said, “I
think a drink of whiskey would do him good,” and Mrs. Frank made the
remark that she didn’t think there was any whiskey in the house. Mr.
Frank seemed to be extremely nervous. His questions were jumpy. I
never heard him speak in my life until that morning. His voice was a
refined voice, it was not coarse. He was rubbing his hands when he came
through the curtains. He moved about briskly. He seemed to be ex-
cited. He asked questions in rapid succession, but gave plenty of time
between questions to have received an answer. Mr. Frank and Mr. Black
got on the rear seat and I took the front seat and as I was fixing to turn
around, one of us asked Mr. Frank if he knew a little girl by the name of
Mary Phagan. Mr. Frank says: “Does she work at the factory ?” and I
said, “I think she does.” Mr. Frank said, “I cannot tell whether or not
she works there until I look on my pay roll book, I know very few of the
girls that work there. I pay them off, but I very seldom go back in the
factory and I know very few of them, but I can look on my pay roll book
and tell you if a girl by the name of Mary Phagan work there.” One of
us suggested that we take Mr. Frank by the undertaking establishment
and let him see if he knew this young lady. Mr. Frank readily consented,
so we stopped at the telephone exchange, Mr. Frank, Mr. Black and my-
self got out and went in the undertaking establishment. I saw the corpse.
The corpse was lying in a little kind of side out room to the right of a
large room. The light was not lit in this little room where the body was
laying, and Mr. Gheesling stepped in ahead of me and went around be-
hind the corpse and lit the light above her head and her head was lying
then towards the wall. I stepped up on the opposite side of the corpse
with a door to my left. Mr. Gheesling caught the face of the dead girl
and turned it over towards me. I looked then to see if anybody followed
me and I saw Mr. Frank step from outside of the door into what I thought
was a closet, but I have afterwards found it was where Mr. Gheesling
slept, or where somebody slept. There was a little single bed in there. I
immediately turned around and came back out, in front of the office. I
didn’t see Frank look at the corpse. I don’t remember that Mr. Frank
ever followed me in this room. He may have stopped on the outside of
the door, but my back was toward him and I don’t know where he
stopped. Mr. Gheesling turned the head of the dead girl over towards me
and I looked around to see who was behind me and I saw Mr. Frank as he
made that movement behind me. He didn’t go into the closet as far as I
could see, but he got out of my view. He could have looked at the corpse
from the time that Mr. Gheesling was going around behind, but he could
not have seen her face because it was lying over towards the wall. The
face was away from me and I presume that was the cause of Mr. Ghees-
ling turning it over. There was some question asked Mr. Frank if he

knew the girl, and I think he replied that he didn’t know whether he did
or not but that he could tell whether she worked at the factory by look-
ing at his pay roll book. As we were leaving Mr. Frank’s house, Mr.
Frank asked Mrs. Frank to telephone Mr. Darley to come to the factory.
Mr. Frank was apparently still nervous at the undertaking establish-
ment, he stepped lively. It was just his general manner that indicated
to me that he was nervous. I never saw Mr. Frank in my life until that
morning. After we got out of Mr. Frank’s house and was in my car, was
the first time Mr. Frank had been told that the young lady was named
Mary Phagan and that there had been any murder committed at the fac-
tory. From the undertaker’s we went to the pencil factory in my car.
We went into Mr. Frank’s office, he went up to the safe, turned the com-
bination, opened the safe, took out his time book, laid the book down on
the table, ran his finger down until he came to the name Mary Phagan,
and said, “Yes, Mary Phagan worked here, she was here yesterday to
get her pay.” He said, “I will tell you about the exact time she left
there. My stenographer left about twelve o’clock, and a few minutes
after she left the office boy left and Mary came in and got her money and
left.” He said she got $1.20 and he asked whether anybody had found
the envelope that the money was in. Frank still seemed to be nervous
like the first time I seen him. It was just his quick manner of stepping
around and his manner of speech like he had done at the house that indi-
cated to me that he was nervous. He then wanted to see where the girl
was found. Mr. Frank went around by the elevator, where there was a
switch box on the wall and Mr. Frank put the switch in. The box was
not locked. Somebody asked him if he was used to keeping the switch
box locked. He said they had kept it locked up to a certain time until
the insurance company told him that he would have to leave it unlocked,
that it was a violation of the law to keep an electric switch box locked.
We then stepped on the elevator. He still stepped about lively and spoke
up lively, answering questions, just like he had always done. After we
got on the elevator, he .jerked at the rope and it hung and he called Mr.
Darley to start it and we all stepped out of the elevator. Mr. Darley
came and pulled at the rope two or three times and the elevator started.
As to whether anybody made any statement down in the basement as to
who was responsible for the murder, I think Mr. Frank made the remark
that Mr. Darley had worked Newt Lee for sometime out at the Oakland
plant and that if Lee knew anything about the murder that Darley would
stand a better chance of getting it out of him than anybody else. After
we came back from the basement it was suggested that we go to the sta-
tion house and as we started out Mr. Frank says, “I had better put in a
new slip, hadn’t I, Darley?” Darley told him yes to put in a slip. Frank
took his keys out, unlocked the door of the right-hand clock and lifted
out the slip, looked at it and made the remark that the slip was punched
correctly. Mr. Darley and Newt Lee was standing there at the time Mr.
Frank said the punches had been made correctly. Mr. Frank then put
in a new slip, closed’the door, locked it and took his pencil and wrote on

the slip that he had already taken out of the machine, “April 26, 1913.”
I looked at the slip that Mr. Frank took out (Defendant’s Exhibit I), the
first punch was 6:01, the second one was 6:32 or 6:33. He took the slip
back in his office. I glanced all the way down and there was a punch for
every number. While we were walking through the factory Mr. Frank
asked two or three times to get a cup of coffee. As to what Mr. Frank
said about the murder, I don’t know that I heard him express himself
except down in the basement. The officers showed him where the body
was found and he made the remark that it was too bad or something to
that effect. When we left the factory to go to police headquarters, Newt
Lee was under arrest. I never considered Mr. Frank as being under ar-
rest at that time. There had never been said anything to him in my pres-
ence about putting him under arrest. Mr. Frank’s appearance at the sta-
tion house was exactly like it was when I first saw him. He stepped
quickly, when the door of the automobile was open, he jumped lightly
off Mr. Darley’s lap, went up the steps pretty rapid.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never saw Mr. Frank until that morning. I don’t know whether
his natural movements or manner of speech were quick or not. We didn’t
know whether the girl was a white girl or not until we rubbed the dirt
from the child’s face and pulled down her stocking a little piece. The
tongue was not sticking out, it was wedged between the teeth. She had
dirt in her eye and mouth. The cord around her neck was drawn so tight
it was sunk in her flesh and the piece of underskirt was loose over her
hair. I don’t know whether Mr. Frank went upstairs or not after we
reached his house. I think he called to his wife to get him his collar and
tie. He got his coat and vest some place, but I don’t know where. At the
time Mrs. Frank was calling Mr. Darley, Mr. Frank was putting on his
collar and tie down in the reception hall. We were at the house 15 or 20
minutes. After Mrs. Frank had said something about Mr. Frank getting
his breakfast before he went, Mr. Black said something about a drink
would do good. Mrs. Frank then called her mother, who said that there
wasn’t any liquor in the house, that Mr. Selig had an acute attack of in-
digestion the night before and used it all up. Mr. Frank readily con-
sented to go to the undertaker’s with us. When we got in the car we told
him it was Mary Phagan and he said he could tell whether she was an
employee or not by looking at his book, that he knew very few of the
girls. Yes, anybody facing the door of the little chapel at the undertak-
er’s could have seen the corpse. As to whether I know that Mr. Frank
didn’t see the corpse he could have got a glance at the whole corpse, but
when Mr. Gheesling turned the face over no one could have got a good
look at the face unless they stepped in the room. Mr. Gheesling turned
the young lady’s face directly toward me, Mr. Frank was standing some-
where behind me, outside of the room. I turned around to see if Mr.
Frank was looking. I don’t know that he didn’t get a glance at the

corpse, but no one but Mr. Gheesling and I at this moment stepped up
and looked at the little girl’s face. What Mr. Frank and Mr. Black saw
behind my back, I can’t say. I don’t say that Mr. Frank stepped into
that dressing room, but he passed out of my view. So did Mr. Black.
Mr. Gheesling had a better view of Mr. Black and Mr. Frank than I did,
because my back was to them and Mr. Gheesling was looking straight
across the body at them. Mr. Frank had no difficulty in unlocking the
safe when we went back to the factory. The elevator we went down on
is a freight elevator, makes considerable noise. I stops itself when it
gets to the bottom. I don’t think it hits the ground. She was lying on
her face with her hands folded up. Her face was turned somewhat to-
ward the left wall. A bruise on the left side of her head, some dry blood
in her hair. One of her eyes were blackened. There were several little
scratches on her face. Somebody worked her arms to see if they were
stiff. The arms worked a little bit. The joints in her arms worked just
a little bit. When we first went down the basement we stayed down there
about 20 or 25 minutes. During that time neither the shoe, the hat, nor
the umbrella had been found. In the elevator shaft there was some ex-
crement. When we went down on the elevator, the elevator mashed it.
You could smell it all around. It looked like the ordinary healthy man’s
excrement. It looked like somebody had dumped naturally; that was
before the elevator came down. When the elevator came down after-
wards it smashed it and then we smelled it. As to the hair of the girl
anyone could tell at first glance that it was that of a white girl.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The body wasn’t lying at the undertakers where it could have been
seen from the door.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
At the moment the face was turned towards me, I didn’t see Mr.
Frank but I know a person couldn’t have looked into the face unless he
was somewhere close to me. I was inside and Mr. Frank never came into
that little room.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
When the face was turned towards me, Mr. Frank stepped out of my
vision in the direction of Mr. Gheesling’s sleeping room.

MISS GRACE HICKS, sworn for the State.

I knew Mary Phagan nearly a year at the pencil factory. She worked
on the second floor. I identified her body at the undertaker’s Sunday
morning, April 27th. I knew her by her hair. She was fair skinned,had
light hair, blue eyes and was heavy built, well developed for her age. I
worked in the metal room, the same room she worked in. Mary’s ma-
chine was right next to the dressing room, the first machine there. They
had a separate closet for men and a separate one for ladies on that floor.

There was just a partition between them. In going to the office from the
closets they would pass the dressing room and Mary’s machine within
two or three feet. Mr. Frank, during the past twelve months, would pass
through the metal department looking around every day. Sometimes I
would see him talking to some of the men in the office at the clocks. He
came back to the metal room to see how the work was getting on. The
metal is kept in a little closet back under the stair steps. I asked Mr.
Quinn, not Mr. Frank, if the metal had come. Saturday at twelve o’clock
is the regular pay-day, but the week of April 26th most of the employes
got paid off on Friday night between six and seven o’clock. I hadn’t
worked there since Wednesday. Mr. Quinn called me up and told me
that pay-day would be Friday. The metal had not come from Monday
to Saturday. Mary didn’t work after Monday of that week.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Standing at the time clock you can’t see into Mr. Frank’s private
office. A person wouldn’t see from Mr. Frank’s office any one coming in
or out of the building. I worked at the factory five years. In that time
Mr. Frank spoke to me three times. Mary Phagan worked at the factory
with me for about a year in the same department and I never saw Mr.
Frank speak to Mary Phagan or Mary Phagan speak to Mr. Frank.
When Mr. Frank came through the metal department he never spoke to
any of the girls; just went through and looked around. The three times
Mr. Frank spoke to me were as follows: He was showing a man around
and I was laying on my arm mighty near asleep and he says “You can
run this machine asleep can’t you,” and I said,” Yes, sir.” Then another
time I asked him for a quarter and he loaned me a quarter. The next time
I met him on the street he tipped his hat to me. Mr. Frank knew my face
or he wouldn’t have spoken to me on the street. The floor in the metal
department is awful dirty. The white stuff that they use back there gets
all over the floors. Mr. Darley is general manager and foreman who em-
ployes the help. Mary Phagan’s hair was darker than mine. She weighed
about 115 pounds. Sometimes we sit over at the machine and comb our
hair and sometimes when I want to curl my hair with a poker or anything,
I go over there to the table right by the window and light the gas and curl
my hair. Magnolia Kennedy’s hair is nearly the color of Mary Phagan’s.
The pay is given employes from a window in the packing department.
There is paint in the polishing room, just across from the dressing room.
The door of the polishing room is a few feet across from the dressing
room. No paint is kept in the metal room. I have seen drops of paint on
the floor. I have seen it leading from the door straight across from the
dressing room out to the cooler where the women come out to get water.
The floor all over the factory is dirty and greasy. And after two or three
days you can’t hardly tell what is on the floor after it gets mixed with the
dirt and dust. I saw Helen Ferguson Friday, April 25th, when we were
paid off.

JOHN R. BLACK, sworn for the State.

I am a city policeman. I don’t know the details of the conversation
between Mr. Starnes and Mr. Frank over the ‘phone. I didn’t pay very
much attention to it. I went over to Mr. Frank’s house with Boots Rog-
ers. Mrs. Frank came to the door. Mrs. Frank had on a bath robe. I
stated that I would like to see Mr. Frank and about that time Mr. Frank
stepped out from behind a curtain. His voice was hoarse and trembling
and nervous and excited. He looked to me like he was pale. I had met
Mr. Frank on two different occasions before. On this occasion he seemed
to be nervous in handling his collar. He could not get his tie tied, and
talked very rapid in asking questions in regard to what had happened.
He wanted to know if he would have time to get something to eat, to get
some breakfast. He wanted to know if something had happened at the
pencil factory and if the night watchman had reported it, and he asked
this last question before I had time to answer the first. He kept insisting
for a cup of coffee. When we got into the automobile as Mr. Rogers was
turning around Mr. Frank wanted to know what had happened at the
factory, and I asked him if he knew Mary Phagan and told him that she
had been found dead in the basement of the pencil factory. Mr. Frank
said he didn’t know any girl by the name of Mary Phagan, that he knew
very few of the employes. I suggested to Mr. Rogers that we drive by the
undertaker’s. In the undertaking establishment Mr. Frank looked at
her. He gave a casual glance at her and stepped aside. I couldn’t say
whether he saw the face of the girl or not. There was a curtain hanging
near the room and Mr. Frank stepped behind the curtain. He could get
no view from behind the curtain. He walked behind the curtain and came
right out. Mr. Frank stated as we left the undertaking establishment
that he didn’t know the girl but he believed he had paid her off on Satur-
day. He thought he recognized her being at the factory on Saturday by
the dress that she wore but he could tell by going over to the factory and
looking at his cash book. At the pencil factory Mr. Frank took the slip
out, looked over it and said it had been punched correctly. On Monday
and Tuesday following Mr. Frank stated that the clock had been mis-
punched three times. This slip was turned over to Chief Lanford on
Monday. I saw Mr. Frank take it out of the clock and went back with it
toward his office. I don’t know of my own personal knowledge that it
was turned over to Chief Lanford Monday. When Mr. Frank was down
at police station on Monday morning Ar. Rosser and Mr. Haas were there.
About 8 or 8:30 o’clock Monday morning Mr. Rosser came in police head-
quarters. That’s the first time he had counsel with him. That morning
Mr. Haslett and myself went to Mr. Frank’s house and asked him to come
down to police headquarters. About 11:30 Monday Mr. Haas demanded
of Chief Lanford that officers accompany Mr. Frank out to his residence
and search his residence. Mr. Haas stated in Frank’s presence that he
was Mr. Frank’s attorney and demanded to show that there was nothing
left undone, that we go out to Mr. Frank’s house and search for anything

that we might find in connection with the case. On Tuesday night Mr.
Scott and myself suggested to Mr. Frank to talk to Newt Lee. Mr. Frank
spoke well of the negro, said he had always found him trusty and honest.
They went in a room and stayed from about 5 to 10 minutes alone. I
couldn’t hear enough to swear that I understood what was said. Mr.
Frank stated that Newt still stuck to the story that he knew nothing
about it. Mr. Frank stated that Mr. Gantt was there on Saturday even-
ing and that he told Newt Lee to let him go and get the shoes but to watch
him, as he knew the surroundings of the office. After this conversation
Gantt was arrested. Frank made no objections to talking to Newt Lee.
Mr. Frank was nervous on Monday. After his release Monday he seemed
very jovial. On Tuesday night Frank said at station house that there
was nobody at factory at 6 o’clock, but Newt Lee and that Newt ought to
know more about it, as it was his duty to look over factory every thirty
minutes. Also that Gantt was there Saturday evening and he left him
there at 6 o’clock and that he and Gantt had some trouble previous to
discharge of Gantt and that he at first refused to allow Gantt to go in
factory, but Gantt told him he left a pair of shoes there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

When I said that Mr. Frank was released I spoke before I thought.
I retracted it on cross-examination. I don’t know that Mr. Rosser was at
the police station between 8 and 8:30 Monday morning, I said that to the
best of my recollection. I wouldn’t swear Mr. Rosser was there. I heard
Mr. Rosser say to Mr. Frank to give them a statement without a confer-
ence at all between Mr. Frank and Mr. Rosser. I said that we wanted to
have a private talk with Mr. Frank without Mr. Rosser being present. I
wanted to talk to Mr. Frank without Mr. Rosser being present. While I
was at the coroner’s inquest Mr. Frank answered every question readily.
I wouldn’t swear positively, but to the best of my recollection I had a
conversation with Mr. Frank on two previous occasions. When I met
Mr. Frank on previous occasions I don’t remember anything that caused
me to believe he was nervous, nothing unusual about him. I heard the
conversation Mr. Starnes had over the telephone with Mr. Frank early
that morning. It was about a quarter to six, or a quarter past six. I
think we got to the undertaker’s about 6:20. As to the reason why I
didn’t tell Mr. Frank about the murder when I was inside the house, but
did tell him as soon as he got in the automobile, I had a conversation with
Newt Lee and I wanted to watch Mr. Frank and see how he felt about the
murder. Mr. Frank didn’t go upstairs and put his collar and cravat on.
Mrs. Frank brought him his collar and tie, I don’t know where she got
them. He told her to bring his collar and tie and he got his coat and hat.
I don’t know whether he went back to his home or not. He put his collar
and tie on right there. I don’t know where he got his coat and vest at. I
don’t know what sort of tie or collar he had. He put his collar and tie on
like anybody else would; tied it himself. I don’t know whether Mr.

Frank finished dressing upstairs or not. I couldn’t see him when he went
behind those curtains. We stayed at the Frank home about ten minutes.
At the undertaking establishment I was right behind Mr. Frank. He was
between me and the body. I saw the face when the undertaker turned
her over. Yes, Mr. Frank being in front of me had an opportunity to see
it also. No, Mr. Frank didn’t go into that sleeping room. Mr. Frank
went out just ahead of me. When we went back to the pencil factory Mr.
Frank went to the safe and unlocked it readily at the first effort. He got
the book, put it on the table, opened it at the right place, ran his finger
down until he came to the name of Mary Phagan and says, “Yes, this lit-
tle girl worked here and I paid her $1.20 yesterday.” We went all over
the factory that day. Nobody saw that blood spot that morning. I guess
there must have been thirty people there during that day. Nobody saw
it. I was there twice that day. Mr. Starnes was there with me. He didn’t
call attention to any blood spots. Chie? Lanford was there, and he didn’t
discover any blood spots. Mr. Frank was at the police station on Monday
from 8:30 until about 11:30. Mr. Frank told me he had discharged Mr.
Gantt on account of shortage and had given orders not to let him in the
factory. As regards Mr. Frank’s linen, Mr. Haas said he was Mr. Frank’s
attorney and requested that we go to Mr. Frank’s house and look over
the clothes he had worn the week before and the laundry too. Yes, we
went out there and examined it. Mr. Frank had had no opportunity to
telephone his house from the time we mentioned it until we got out there.
He went with us and showed us the dirty linen. I examined Newt Lee’s
house. I found a bloody shirt in the bottom of a clothes barrel there on
Tuesday morning about 9 o’clock.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank had told me that he didn’t think Newt Lee had told all he
knew about the murder. He also said after looking over the time sheet
and seeing that it hadn’t been punched correctly that that would have
given Lee an hour to have gone out to his house and back. I don’t know
when he made this last statement. I don’t remember whether that was
before or after I went out to Lee’s house and found the shirt. We went
into his house with a skeleton key. It was after Frank told me about the
skips in the punches. The shirt is just like it was the day I found it. The
blood looks like it is on both sides of the shirt.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

I don’t know whether I went out to Lee’s house before or after Mr.
Frank suggested the skips in the time slips. I don’t like to admit it, but
I am so crossed up and worried that I don’t know where I am at, but I
think to the best of my knowledge it was Monday that Frank said that
the slips had been changed.

MRS. J. W. COLEMAN, re-called for the State.

Mary carried a little silver mesh bag the day she left her home, made
of German silver. This looks like the handkerchief that she carried.
(State’s Exhibit” M.” )

J. M. GANTT, sworn for the State.

From June last until the first of January I was shipping clerk at the
National Pencil Company. I was discharged April 7th by Mr. Frank for
alleged shortage in the pay roll. I have known Mary Phagan when she
was a little girl. Mr. Frank knew her, too. One Saturday afternoon she
came in the office to have her time corrected, and after I had gotten
through Mr. Frank came in and said, “You seem to know Mary pretty
well,” No, I had not told him her name. I used to know Mary when she
was a little girl, but I have not seen her up to the time I went to work for
the factory. My work was in the office and she worked in the rear of the
building on the same floor in the tip department. After I was discharged,
I went back to the factory on two occasions. Mr. Frank saw me both
times. He made no objection to my going there. One girl used to get pay
envelopes for another girl with Mr. Frank’s knowledge. There was an
alleged shortage in the pay roll of $2.00. Mr. Frank came to see me about
it and I told him I didn’t know anything about it, and he said he wasn’t
going to make it good, and I said I wasn’t, and he then discharged me.
Prior to my being discharged Mr. Frank told me he had the best office
force he ever had. I was the time keeper. Mr. Frank could sit at his
desk and see the employees register at the time clock if the safe door was
closed. Mr. Frank did not fix the clock frequently, possibly two or three
times. On April 26th, about six o’clock I saw Newt Lee sitting out in
front of the factory and I remembered that I left a pair of shoes up there
and I asked Newt Lee what about my getting them, and he said he
couldn’t let me up. I said Mr. Frank is up there, isn’t he? because I had
seen him in the window from across the street, and while we were stand-
ing there talking, in two or three minutes, Mr. Frank was coming down
the stairway and got within fifteen feet of the door when he saw me and
when he saw me he kind of stepped back like he was going to go back,
but when he looked up and saw that I was looking at him he came on out,
and I said “Howdy, Mr. Frank,” and he kind of jumped again. I told
him I had a pair of shoes up there I would like to get and he said, “Do
you want to go with me, or will Newt Lee be all right?” and he kind of
studied a little bit, and said, “What kind of shoes were they?” and I
said, “They were tan shoes,” and he said, “I think I saw a negro sweep-
ing them up the other day.” And I said, “Well, I have a pair of black
ones there, too,” and he kind of studied a little bit, and said “Newt, go
ahead with him and stay with him until he gets his shoes,” and I went up
there and found both pair right where I had left them. Mr. Frank looked

pale, hung his head, and nervous and kind of hesitated and stuttered like
he didn’t like me in there somehow or other.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I testified at the coroner’s inquest. I admit I did not testify about
Frank’s knowing Mary very well there, that has been recalled to my
mind since I was arrested on Monday, April 28th, at 11 o’clock and held
until Thursday night about six.

MRS. J. A. WHITE, sworn for the State.

I saw my husband at the pencil factory at 11:30. I stayed there un-
til about 10 minutes to 12. I left him there and came back about 12:30
and left again about 1 o’clock. When I got there at 11:30 I saw Miss
Hall, the stenographer, Mr. Frank and two men. I asked Mr. Frank if I
could see my husband Mr. White. Mr. Frank was in the outside office
then. He said I could see him and sent word by Mrs. Emma Freeman for
him to come down-stairs. My husband came to the foot of the stairs on
the second floor. I talked to him about 15 minutes and went on out. I
returned about 12:30. Mr. Frank was in the outside office standing in
front of the safe. I asked him if Mr. White had gone back to work. He
jumped like I surprised him and turned and said, “Yes.” It wasn’t
much of a jump. I went upstairs then to see Mr. White. Harry Denham
was with him working on the fourth floor. They were hammering. It
was not a continuous noise they were making. I heard the. hammer not
more than once or twice. Mr. Frank came upstairs while I was up there,
somewhere about 1 o’clock. I know it was before one because at one I
was at McDonald’s furniture store, four or five blocks from the factory.
I got there a few minutes after one. Mr. Frank told Mr. White if I
wanted to get out before 3 o’clock, to come on down because he was going
to leave and lock the door, that I had better be ready to go as soon as he
got his coat and hat. I went on out and as I passed he was sitting in the
outside office writing at a table. As I was going on down the steps I saw
a negro sitting on a box close to the stairway on the first floor. Mr.
Frank did not have his coat or hat on when I passed out.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I left the factory about 1 o’clock. I wouldn’t say that it was posi-
tively ten minutes to one. While I was talking to my husband at the fac-
tory, Miss Corinthia Hall, May Barrett and her daughter were there.
Mrs. Barrett had been upstairs and her daughter came down afterwards.
Miss Hall and Mrs. Freeman left first, Mrs. Barrett and her daughter left
next and then I went. That was about ten minutes to twelve. I saw the
negro sitting between the stairway and the door about five or six feet
from the foot of the stairway. I wouldn’t be able to identify him.

HARRY SCOTT, sworn for the State.

I am Superintendent of the local branch of the Pinkerton Detective
Agency. I have worked on this case with John Black, city detective. I
was employed by Mr. Frank representing the National Pencil Company.
I saw Mr. Frank Monday afternoon, April 28th, at the pencil factory. We
went into Mr. Frank’s private office. Mr. Darley and a third party were
with us. Mr. Frank said, I guess you read in the newspapers about the
horrible crime that was committed in this factory, and the directors of
this company and myself have had a conference and thought that the
public should demand that we have an investigation made, and endeavor
to determine who is responsible for this murder.” And Mr. Frank then
said he had just come from police barracks and that Detective Black
seemed to suspect him of the crime, and he then related to me his move-
ments on Saturday, April 26th, in detail. He stated that he arrived at
the factory at 8 a. m., that he left the factory between 9:30 and 10 with
Mr. Darley for Montag Bros. for the mail, that he remained at Montag
Bros. for about an hour; that he returned to the factory at about 11
o’clock, and just before twelve o’clock Mrs. White, the wife of Arthur
White, who was working on the top floor of the building that day with
Harry Denham, came in and asked permission to go upstairs and see her
husband. Mr. Frank granted her permission to do so. He then stated
that Mary Phagan came in to the factory at 12:10 p. m. to draw her pay;
that she had been laid off the Monday previous and she was paid $1.20;
that he paid her off in his inside office where he was at his desk, and when
she left his office and went in the outer office, she had reached the outer
office door, leading into the hall and turned around to Mr. Frank and
asked if the metal had come yet; Mr. Frank replied that he didn’t know
and that Mary Phagan then he thought reached the stairway, and he
heard voices, but he could not distinguish whether they were men or girls
talking, that about 12:50 he went up to the fourth floor and asked White
and Denham when they would finish up their work and they replied they
wouldn’t finish up for a couple of hours; that Mrs. White was up there at
the time and Frank informed Mrs. White that he was going to lock up the
factory, that she had better leave; Mrs. White preceded Mr. Frank down
the stairway and went on out of the factory as far as he knew, but on the
way out, Mrs. White made the statement that she had seen a negro on
the street floor of the building behind some boxes, and Mr. Frank stated
that at 1:10 p. m. he left the factory for home to go to luncheon; he ar-
rived at the factory again at 3 p. m., went to work on some financial work
and at about four o’clock the night watchman reported for work, as per
Mr. Frank’s instructions the previous day; that he allowed Newt Lee to
go out and have a good time for a couple of hours and report again at six
o’clock, which Newt did and at six o’clock when Lee returned to the fac-
tory, he asked Mr. Frank, as he usually did, if everything was all right,
and Mr. Frank replied “Yes” and Lee went on about his business. Mr.
Frank left the factory at 6:04 p. m. and when he reached the street door

entrance he found Lee talking to Gantt, an ex-book-keeper who Frank
had discharged for thieving. Mr. Frank stated that he had arrived home
at about 6:25 p. m. and knowing that he had discharged Gantt, he tried to
get Lee on the telephone at about 6:30; knowing that Lee would be in the
vicinity of the time clock at that time and could hear the telephone ring;
that he did not succeed in getting him at 6:30, but that he got him at
seven; that he asked Lee the question if Gantt had left the factory and if
everything was all right, to which Lee replied “Yes,” and he hung up
the receiver. Mr. Frank stated he went to bed somewhere around 9:30.
After that Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley accompanied me around the
factory and showed me what the police had found. Mr. Darley being the
spokesman. We went first to the metal room on the second floor, where I
was shown some spots supposed to be blood spots, they were already
chipped up, and I was taken to a machine where some strands of hair
were supposed to have been found. From there we went down and exam-
ined the time clock and went through the scuttle hole and down the lad-
der into the basement, where I was shown where everything had been
found. As to Mr. Frank’s manner and deportment at the time we were
in his office, he seemed to be perfectly natural. I saw no signs of nervous-
ness. Occasionally between words he seemed to take a deep breath, and
deep sighs about four or five times. His eyes were very large and pierc-
ing. They looked about the same they do now. He was a little pale. He
gave his narrative rather rapidly. As to whether he stated any fixed
definite time as to hours or minutes, he didn’t state any definite time as
to when Mary Phagan came in, he said she came in at about 12:10. We
furnished attorneys for Frank with reports. After refreshing my mem-
ory I now state that Mr. Frank informed me at the time I had that con-
versation with him that he heard these voices before 12 o’clock, before
Mary Phagan came. He also stated during our conversation that Gantt
knew Mary Phagan very well, that he was familiar and intimate with
her. He seemed to lay special stress on it at the time. He said that Gantt
paid a good deal of attention to her. As to whether anything was said
by any attorney of Frank’s as to our suppressing any evidence as to this
murder, it was the first week in May when Mr. Pierce and I went to Mr.
Herbert J. Haas’ office in the 4th National Bank Building and had a con-
ference with him as to the Pinkerton Agency’s position in the matter.
Mr. Haas stated that he would rather we would submit our reports to him
first before we turned it over to the public and let them know what evi-
dence we had gathered. We told him we would withdraw before we
would adopt any practice of that sort, that it was our intention to work
in hearty co-operation with the police.
I saw the place near the girls’ dressing room on the office floor, fresh
chips had already been cut out of the floor and I saw white smeared
where the chips had been cut out and there were also some dark spots
near the chipped out places. It was just as though somebody had taken
a cloth and rubbed some white substance around in a circle, about eight
inches in diameter. This white stuff covered all of the dark spots. I

didn’t note any unusual signs of nervousness about Frank in his office.
There wasn’t any trembling or anything of that sort at that time. He
was not composed. On Tuesday night, April 29th, Black, Mr. Frank and
myself were together and Mr. Black told Mr. Frank that he believed
Newt Lee was not telling all that he knew. I also said to Mr. Frank that
Newt knew more than he was telling, and that as he was his employer, I
thought he could get more out of the nigger than we could, and I asked
him if he would consent to go into a room as employer and employee and
try to get it out of him. Mr. Frank readily consented and we put them in
a private room, they were together there for about ten minutes alone.
When about ten minutes was up, Mr. Black and I entered the room and
Lee hadn’t finished his conversation with Frank and was saying, “Mr.
Frank it is awful hard for me to remain handcuffed to this chair,” and
Frank hung his head the entire time the negro was talking to him, and
finally in about thirty seconds, he said, “Well, they have got me too.”
After that we asked Mr. Frank if he had gotten anything out of the negro
and he said, “No, Lee still sticks to his original story,” Mr. Frank was
extremely nervous at that time. He was very squirmy in his chair, cross-
ing one leg after the other and didn’t know where to put his hands; he
was moving them up and down his face, and he hung his head a great
deal of the time while the negro was talking to him. He breathed very
heavily and took deep swallows, and sighed and hesitated somewhat.
His eyes were about the same as they are now. That interview between
Lee and Frank took place shortly after midnight, Wednesday, April 30th.
On Monday afternoon, Frank said to me that the first punch on Newt
Lee’s slip was 6:33 p. m., and his last punch was 3 a. m. Sunday. He
didn’t say anything at that time about there being any error in Lee’s
punches. Mr. Black and I took Mr. Frank into custody about 11:30 a. m.
Tuesday, April 29th. His hands were quivering very much, he was very
pale. On Saturday, May 3d, I went to Frank’s cell at the jail with Black
and I asked Mr. Frank if from the time he arrived at the factory from
Montag Bros. up until 12:50 p. m., the time he went upstairs to the fourth
floor, was he inside of his office the entire time, and he stated “Yes.”
Then I asked him if he was inside his office every minute from 12 o’clock
until 12:30 and he said “Yes.” I made a very thorough search of the
area around the elevator and radiator and back in there. I made a sur-
face search. I found nothing at all. I found no ribbon or purse, or pay
envelope, or bludgeon or stick. I spent a great deal of time around the
trap door and I remember running the light around the door way right
close to the elevator, looking for splotches of blood, but I found nothing.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Yes, I sent you this report as to what happened between Mr. Herbert
J. Haas and myself: “This afternoon Supt. H. B. Pierce and myself held
a conference with Mr. Herbert Haas, at which the agency’s position in
the matter was discussed, and Mr. Haas stated they wanted to learn who

the murderer was, regardless of who it involved.” Mr. Haas told me
that after I had told him we would withdraw from the cause before we
would not co-operate with the police. No, I did not report that to you. I
reported the motive of our conference. No, I did not say anything about
Mr. Haas wanting us to do anything except locate the murderer. Yes, I
talked to you afterwards and you also told me to find the murderer, even
if it was Frank. Mr. Haas had said to Mr. Pierce and me that he would
rather that we submit our reports of evidence to him before we turned it
over to the police. No, there was nothing said about not giving this to
the police. I testified at the coroner’s inquest as to what conversation I
had with Mr. Frank. I did not give you in my report the details of Mr.
Frank’s morning movements, when he left home, arrived at the factory
and went to Montag Bros., and returned to the factory. As to my not
saying one word about Gantt being familiar with this little girl, that was
just an oversight, that is all. No, I did not testify to that either at the
coroner’s inquest. I didn’t put it in the report to you, because Gantt was
released the next day and I didn’t consider him a suspect. There was no
reason for my not giving it to you. It was an oversight. I am represent-
ing the National Pencil Company, who employed me, and not Mr. Frank
individually. It is true in my report to you with reference to the inter-
view between me and Mr. Frank that I stated “I had no way of knowing
what they said because they were both together privately in a room there
and we had no way of knowing except what Lee told us afterwards.” I
now state that I did hear the last words of Lee. I didn’t put in my notes
that Gantt was familiar with Mary Phagan, I don’t put everything in my
notes and the coroner didn’t examine me about it either. No, I didn’t
tell the coroner anything about Frank crossing his legs and putting his
hands up to his face. I never went into detail down there. No I didn’t
mention his hanging his head. We always work with the police on crim-
inal cases. No, I did not testify before the coroner about any white stuff
having been smeared over those supposed blood spots. I am not sure
whether I got the statement about Mary Phagan being familiar with
Gantt from Mr. Darley or Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank was present at the time.
Mr. Frank told me when the little girl asked if the metal had come back
that he said “I don’t know.” It may be true that I swore before the
coroner that in answer to that question from Mary Phagan as to whether
the metal had come yet that Frank said, “No,” and it is possible that I
so reported to you. If I said “No,” I meant “I don’t know.” I say now
that Mr. Frank told me he left the factory at 1:10 p. m. If I reported to
you that he told me he left at one o’clock, I made a very serious mistake.
That is an oversight. Yes, I reported to the police before I reported to
Mr. Haas or Mr. Montag.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Yes, our agency reported to the police about finding the club. I find
it is in our report of May 15th. I don’t know when it was reported; I was

out of town. I worked all through this case with Detective Black and
every move he made was known to both of us. As to the stairway from
the basement to the upper floor, there was a great deal of dust on the
stairs and the dust didn’t seem to be disturbed. This stairway is not in
the picture but is near the back door. It was nailed and closed.

MISS MONTEEN STOVER, sworn for the State.

I worked at the National Pencil Company prior to April 25th, 1913.
I was at the factory at five minutes after twelve on that day. I stayed
there five minutes and left at ten minutes after twelve. I went there to
get my money. I went in Mr. Frank’s office. He was not there. I didn’t
see or hear anybody in the building. The door to the metal room was
closed. I had on tennis shoes, a yellow hat and a brown rain coat. I
looked at the clock on my way up, it was five minutes after twelve and it
was ten minutes after twelve when I started out. I had never been in his
office before. The door to the metal room is sometimes open and some-
times closed.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I didn’t look at the clock to see what time it was when I left home or
when I got back home. I didn’t notice the safe in Mr. Frank’s office. I
walked right in and walked right out. I went right through into the
office and turned around and came out. I didn’t notice how many desks
were in the outer office. I didn’t notice any wardrobe to put clothes in.
I don’t know how many windows are in the front office. I went through
the first office into the second office. The factory was still and quiet when
I was there. I am fourteen years old and I worked on the fourth floor of
the factory. I knew the paying-off time was twelve o’clock on Saturday
and that is why I went there. They don’t pay off in the office, you have
to go up to a little window they open.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

The door to the metal room is sometimes closed and sometimes open.
When the factory isn’t running the door is closed.

R. P. BARRETT, sworn for the State.

I am a machinist for the National Pencil Company. I have been
there about eight weeks. On Monday morning, April 28th, I found an
unusual spot that I had never seen before at the west end of the dressing
room on the second floor of the pencil factory. That spot was not there
Friday. The spot was about 4 or 5 inches in diameter and little spots

behind these from the rear-6 or 8 in number. I discovered these be-
tween 6:30 and 7 o’clock Monday. It was blood. It looked like some
white substance had been wiped over it. We kept potash and haskoline,
both white substances, on this floor. This white stuff was smeared over
the spots. It looked like it had been smeared with a coarse broom.
There was a broom on that floor, leaning up against the wall. No, the
broom didn’t show any evidence of having been used, except that it was
dirty. It was used in the metal department for cleaning up the grease.
The floor was regularly swept with a broom of finer straw. I found some
hair on the handle of a bench lathe. The handle was in the shape of an
“L.” The hair was hanging on the handle, swinging down. Mell Stan-
ford saw this hair. The hair was not there on Friday. The gas jet that
the girls sometimes use to curl their hair on is about ten feet from the
machine where the hair was found. Machine Number is No. 10. It is my
machine. I know the hair wasn’t there on Friday, for I had used that
machine up to quitting time, 5:30. There was a pan of haskoline about 8
feet from where the blood was found. The nearest potash was in vats in
the plating department, 20 or 25 feet away. The latter part of the week
I found a piece of a pay envelope (State’s Exhibit U) under Mary Pha-
gan’s machine. I have examined the area around the elevator on the
main floor and I looked down the ladder and I never saw any stick. I
did not find any envelope or blood or anything else there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never searched for any blood spots before, until Miss Jefferson
came in and said she understood Mary had been murdered in the metal
department, then I started to search right away; that was the only spot
I could find; I could tell it was blood by looking at it. I can tell the dif-
ference between blood and other substances. I found the hair some few
minutes afterward-about 6 or 8 strands of hair and pretty long. When
I left the machine on Friday I left a piece of work in there. When I got
back the piece of work was still there. It had not been disturbed. The
machine was in the same position in which I left it Friday night; there
was no blood under this machine. There is no number or amount on the
envelope I found, and no name on it, just a little loop, a part of a letter.
Yes, I have been aiding Mr. Dorsey and the detectives search the build-
ing. Yes, Mr. Dorsey subpoenaed me to come to his office; it was a State
subpoena. I gave him an affidavit.

MELL STANFORD, sworn for the State.

I have been working at the National Pencil Company a little over
two years. I swept the whole floor in the metal room on Friday, April the
25th. On Monday thereafter I found a spot that had some white hasko-
line over it on second floor near dressing room. That wasn’t there on

Friday when I swept between 9 and 12 o’clock. I use a small broom in
sweeping. I saw a big cane broom standing by the waste metal room on
Monday about six feet from where the blood was found. The spot looked
to me like it was blood, with dark spots scattered around. It looked like
the large broom had been used in putting the haskoline on the floor by
the impressions or scratches of the cane in the floor.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I was a sweeper in the metal room. Yes, they have regular negro
sweepers there for the building. I swept it all up because the negro
wasn’t there. It took me from 9 till 12 to sweep the whole floor. I moved
everything and swept everything. I swept under Mary Phagan’s and
Barrett’s machine. Next to the ladies’ closet they store a lot of different
things, mineral paints, barrels, boxes, all sort of things. That’s part of
the metal room where they are kept. I swept clear up to the doors of the
toilets and clear up to the paint shop. It wasn’t my duty to sweep where
the machines are and where Mary worked but I did sweep there anyhow.
I have done that several times before. There were paint spots in several
different places up there when I swept up Friday. These blood spots
were right in front of the ladies’ dressing room. They led right up to the
door.

MRS. GEORGE W. JEFFERSON, sworn for the State.

I worked at the National Pencil Company. We saw blood on the sec-
ond floor in front of the girls’ dressing room on Monday. It was about as
big as a fan, and something white was over it. I didn’t see that blood
there Friday. Yes, there are cords in the polishing room, used to tie
pencils with. They are hung up on a post in the polishing room. The
spots were dark red in color. These cords are taken off the pencils and
we throw them on a nail. We don’t untie the knots. This loop right here
is in all of the cords. I work in the polishing room, polishing lead pen-
cils. I have been working there five years. We use paint in there, ma-
roon red, red line and bright red. Of course you can tell the bright red
from maroon red and the red line from maroon red. That spot that I
saw was not one of these three paints.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Barrett and I discovered that spot there together. Yes, that is a
dirty, greasy floor. You can see grease, but you don’t see anything red
on the floor-not in the metal room. You do in the polishing room. The
paints don’t come from the metal room. They are kept back in the other
room. We carry the paint back in bottles. Of course if a bottle would
break the paint would get all over the floor. The white stuff there didn’t
hide the red at all. You could see it plainly.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

The pencils are painted on the third floor. There isn’t any paint used
at all in the factory only in the polishing room, except on the third floor.

B. B. HASLETT, sworn for the State.
I went to Mr. Frank’s house Monday morning after the murder,
about 7 o’clock. I went out there and got him and took him to the sta-
tion house. He was at the station house two or three hours. I told him
Chief Lanford wanted to see him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw Mr. Rosser and Mr. Haas at the station house about 8:30 or 9
o’clock. Mr. Black and I both went out for Mr. Frank Monday morning.
We took him to the station house and turned him over to Chief Lanford.
They had Mr. Frank in there and a half dozen detectives, and Mr. Haas
and you were there. When we went out to Mr. Frank’s house he went
with us. As to whether he had to go or not, I suppose if he had resisted
we would have taken him. It was not a question as to whether he wanted
to go or not, but he didn’t know he had to go. As to why two of us went
out after him-two of us generally go together after anybody, because if
he don’t go voluntarily, he would go anyhow, we would take him.

E. F. HOLLOWAY, sworn for the State.
I am day watchman at the National Pencil factory-worked there
two years. I was there on April 26th, from 6:30 a. m. till 11:45. I look
after the elevator and freight that come in and out and people that come
in and out. As to what I did to the elevator on that Saturday, I didn’t do
anything except that when Mr. White and Mr. Denham were working on
the top floor, I started the elevator up and ripped up a plank for them.
The elevator was locked when I sawed that plank for them, but when I
left it was unlocked. I locked it Friday night when I left there. But I
went off from there Saturday and forgot to lock it. When I made that
affidavit for you on May 12th, 1913, I forgot to tell you that I did some
sawing for Mr. White and Mr. Denham. The elevator was standing on
the office floor when I left there Saturday. I left it standing right there.
I had done some sawing for Mr. White and Mr. Denham just before I left
and in talking to them I went off and forgot to lock it. In affidavit signed
May 12th, 1913, in presence of Starnes, Campbell and others, in answer
to question, “Is the power box left locked or unlocked?” I will say I
locked it Friday when I left there. I don’t remember saying in this affi-
davit that if the elevator box was kept unlocked on account of insurance
companies requiring it that I never heard of it, that they always told me
to lock it. I don’t remember any questions being asked me about any
keys. I read and signed my name to that paper before I signed it. I

don’t remember stating that I locked it Saturday. I did say in that affi-
davit it is kept locked all the time. The reason I said at the coroner’s in-
quest that the elevator box was always locked and that I left it locked on
Saturday was because I forgot to tell about that sawing. I did that saw-
ing just before I left there Saturday. Friday evening I never heard Mr.
Frank say anything to Newt Lee. When I left the factory at 11:45 on
Saturday Mr. Frank said to me “You can go ahead if you want to; we
will all go at noon.” At about 9:30 Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley went over
to Montag Bros. I have seen Gantt talking to Mary Phagan frequently.
The stairs leading from the first floor into the basement are in good con-
dition. They haven’t been used this year. They have been nailed up all
the year. The area on first floor around trap-door down there was cleaned
up about two weeks after the insurance people came over and went
through the building.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Denham and Mr. White were working there Saturday, up on the
fourth floor. They were up there when I left the building. Anybody
could have walked from the fourth floor to the second floor all day long;
there was no obstruction. A man at the stairway on the third floor can
see the second floor in front of the clock. The front doors were unlocked
all the morning and they were still unlocked when I left. When Mr. Den-
ham and Mr. White asked me to saw some timber for them that morning,
I went and got the key and unlocked the motor that runs the elevator. I
left it unlocked after that. Anybody could have started the elevator run-
ning then by throwing in the switch. I am familiar with the floor back
there in the metal department. It is a very dirty, greasy, stained up floor
-there isn’t a worse one in town. Whenever you walk along there you
will fall down if you are not very particular. The floor has never been
washed all the three years that I have been there. You see the analines
and white stuff scattered all over the floor every day and the sweepers
just sweep it along together. You see spots on the floor quite frequently.
We work about 100 girls in the factory. Four or five of them work in the
metal room. There is a ladies’ dressing room right there where they
chipped up the spots, and right across from there is the toilet, not over
six feet from it. I have seen blood spots frequently ever since I have
been working there around the ladies’ toilets and the ladies’ dressing
rooms; the foreladies would always tell me about it and I have often
noticed it when we were working or sweeping or anything of the kind,
and I would know what it meant. I would go back and have it cleaned.
These spots that Barrett claims to have found I don’t recall having
noticed before; they would not have attracted my attention. They were
right on the way to the ladies’ dressing room. Yes, this man Barrett dis-
covered mighty near everything that was discovered in the building-
hair, blood, and pay envelope. That is what he says. No, I have never
seen Mr. Frank speak to Mary Phagan. I was at the factory at 6:30 Sat-

urday morning. I was the first man that got there. Denham and White
came in about 7 o’clock and went up on the fourth floor. They were do-
ing some work up there. I had to saw that plank for them. They told me
that it would take them until about 3 o’clock. The office boy, Alonzo
Mann, 13 or 14 years old, came in next. Mr. Frank came in about 8:30 or
8:45. He went right in his office, unlocked his safe and got out his books
and went to work on them. Mr. Darley was the next one that came in and
Miss Mattie Smith the next. She stayed about 10 minutes and went out
again. I met Miss Corinthia Hall and Miss Emma Clark at the corner of
Hunter and Broad coming toward the factory just as I was leaving. Miss
Clark asked me if anybody was there-said she wanted her wrap, it was
turning cold, and I said, “Yes, Mr. Frank will let you have it.” There
were several others came in that morning, but they came in while I was
up stairs with Mr. White and Mr. Denham. There was no lock at all on
the metal room door. Newt Lee closed up the building Friday. He looks
after all the doors and windows plumb back to the back door in the base-
ment. There were 7 or 8 negroes about the building, elevator boys and
sweepers. On Saturday they paid off at 12 o’clock, right at the clock.
Mr. Frank would always be in his office attending to his books when they
paid off. We put up a sign saying that the paying off would be done Fri-
day night instead of Saturday, because Saturday was a holiday. We put
four signs on every floor. Elevator shaft is closed by sliding doors. Any-
body can raise them, they are not locked. It is very dark around the ele-
vator shaft on the first floor, filled with boxes all around there. We have
two clocks. One runs to 100 and the others runs from 100 to 200. Each
employe has a number. That is the reason we have two clocks. When
Miss Mattie Smith came in she discovered a mistake about her time by
the time she reached the clock. Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley corrected it in
the office and then she left. Mr. Frank got back from Montag’s about 11
o’clock. He had with him the folder in which he carries his papers. No-
body was with him when he came back. He went right up into his office.
The stenographer was in the outer office when he got there. These cords
here are found laying around everywhere in the building. They come on
every bundle of slats that come into the building. The pencils are tied
up with those slats at the top floor, brought down by elevator, carried in
the packing room and those strings are then put on them. They get in
the trash every day and into the basement. It is impossible to keep them
out. I did not see Mary Phagan or Monteen Stover. The negro Conley
was familiar with the whole building, every part of it.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

White and Denham were working on the fourth floor about thirty
feet from the elevator. On May 12, 1913, I told you that the elevator was
locked because I forgot to tell you I done some sawing. I took the key
out, left the elevator unlocked and took the key back and put it in the
office. Mr. Darley got to the factory about 9 o’clock Saturday. Miss
Mattie Smith got there about 9:10.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

When I gave Mr. Dorsey that affidavit about locking the elevator I
was telling more about my habit, the way I usually did it. I forgot to tell
him about sawing those planks that Saturday morning and the fact that
I sawed those planks makes me know that I left the elevator unlocked.
The elevator makes a good deal of noise when it starts and when it stops.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I was on the second floor when all of these people came in the fac-
tory. Mr. Frank worked on his books until he got ready to go to Mon-
tags, I think it was about an hour. I checked freight with a one-legged
drayman about 10:30; his wagon was right in front of the door.

N. V. DARLEY, sworn for the State.

My name is N. V. Darley. I am manager of the Georgia Cedar Com-
pany, a branch of the National Pencil Company. I have charge of the
manufacturing and labor in the Forsyth Street plant. Mr. Sig Montag is
my superior. Mr. Frank and I are of equal dignity in the factory. I was
at the National Company’s factory on Saturday, April 26th. I saw Mr.
Frank and left about 9:40 in the morning. I was there Sunday morning
at about 8:20. I saw Mr. Frank that morning. Observed nothing un-
usual when I first saw him. When we started to the basement I noticed
his hands were trembling. I observed that he seemed still nervous when
he went to nail up the back door. When we started down to nail up the
back door he made some remark about having on new clothes or some
more clothes and he pulled his coat off to keep it from getting soiled.
When we left the station house and started towards Bloomfields he told
me why he was nervous. He said that he had not had breakfast and
didn’t get any coffee and that they had rushed him by Bloomfields, car-
ried him in a dark room and turned the light on and he saw the girl in-
stantly and that was why he was nervous. The elevator was unlocked.
I don’t know where the key was. Newt Lee seemed to be thoroughly
composed. Mr. Frank stated to me in the basement that he thought that
the murder was committed in the basement. Mr. Frank, stated that it
looked easy for the staple to be pulled out and I agreed with him, because
the staple looked black and it looked to me as if it had been pulled out
before. On Monday Mr. Frank explained again why he was nervous Sun-
day morning. I heard him speak of the murder numerous times. When
we started down the elevator Mr. Frank was nervous, shaking all over. I
can’t say positively as to whether his whole body was shaking or not, but
he was shaking. Newt Lee seemed to be composed when I saw him at the
factory. Mr. Fiank could have driven the nails in the back door, but I
thought I could do it with more ease. Mr. Frank looked pale Sunday
morning. I think he seemed upset, but he did some things around the

factory there that a man who was completely upset could not have done,
J don’t think. When riding down to the police station from the pencil
factory Mr. Frank was on my knee, he was trembling. I saw the financial
sheet on Mr. Frank’s desk. Mr. Frank picked it up in his hand. Gantt
was at the factory three or four times after he was discharged. My recol-
lection is that Frank said something about the financial sheet on Sunday.
It was on May 3rd that Mr. Haas, the insurance man, asked that the fac-
tory be cleaned upon the Malsby side and on the other side. When my
attention was called to it I noticed something that looked like blood with
something white over it at the ladies’ dressing room on Monday morning.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Quinn called my attention to the blood spots, Barrett called
Quinn’s attention to it. Barrett showed me some hair on a lever of the
lathe. It was 20 or 30 feet from Mary Phagan’s machine on the north
side of the room. There were no blood spots on it. I don’t think any-
body could answer how many strands of hair Barrett found. They were
wound around the lever. I don’t think there were over 6 or 8 at the out-
side. It was pretty hard to tell the color. It is my understanding that
Barrett has been doing most of the discovering done in the building. He
has lost quite some time since the murder, and buys quite some extras
and reads them. The white stuff practically hid the spots. It looked
like there had been an attempt to hide them, but you could see the spots.
It looked like the man who tried to hide them, if anybody did, made a
smearing motion and left the spots showing. I saw no blood spots on
Mary Phagan’s machine. There are hundreds of pay envelopes distrib-
uted every week in the factory. The rule is that if a person goes outside
of the factory and finds an envelope short we do not correct it. As the
pay envelopes are distributed they take them and tear them off, just like
this one. The employees take the money out and scatter the envelopes
all over the factory. On the second floor where the metal room is is the
main place where you find the pay envelopes. I was present on Sunday
morning when the time slip was taken out. I was looking over Mr.
Frank’s shoulder. Mr. Frank run it down the number side. This time
slip (Defendant’s Exhibit “I”) looks like the one. Mr. Frank looked
down the number side and said it was all right and I verified it. I didn’t
notice between 9:32 and 10:29 if there was any punch, or between 11:04
and 12, or between 2:03 and 3:01. I identify this (Exhibit “I” defend-
ant) by the numbers 6:01 and 6:32. I look over the financial sheets every
Saturday afternoon. The factory week runs from Friday morning till
Thursday night. The financial sheet is usually completed about 5:30
Saturday afternoon. The financial sheet shows the week’s operation of
the factory; the production of the factory, the different kinds of pencils
that were produced. There are perhaps 75 or 80 different kinds, besides
the special imprint pencils. Mr. Frank had to get all the data from the
-jarious departments of the factory, particularly the packing room. The

cost of production was estimated most of the time as to the merchandise.
The other things were real figures. Merchandise is bought by the month
and he had to figure it up at the end of the month to get the average. To
arrive at the profit that was made during the week he took the actual
value of the pencil and the amount of expenses that was paid out for ma-
terial, labor, etc. He had to get all the data, all the reports and make all
those calculations. It usually took him from about half past two or three
o’clock on Saturday until five-thirty, and some times later. This finan-
cial sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit “2″) is in Frank’s handwriting and is
the one I saw on his desk Sunday morning. I left the factory at 9:40
and he hadn’t started the financial sheet then. He usually started
the financial sheet from 2:30 to 3 o’clock. I am familiar with Frank’s
handwriting. All of this financial sheet is in his handwriting. To
get the figures 27651/2, net 27191/2, under material cost, he had to
look at how many labels had been used, how many boxes, whether
they were carton or plain ones, partition, rubbers, amount of lead used
and amount of slate used. He got the reports that gave him that data
from the different departments of the factory. To arrive at that result is
quite a calculation. It is my opinion that it took a skillful, clear-headed
man to calculate that. Yes, I am familiar with the elements that enter
into that calculation. To arrive at the net results of the figures just
named, you have to get the amount of rubbers, tips, lead, wrappers, la-
bels, boxes, whether carton or plain boxes, partition, whether it is cheap
or good lead. The 27651/2 means 27651/2 gross. Further on down you
find the different items that make up that figure under the head of wrap-
pers, leads, tips, etc. The next figure is under rubber, 720 gross at 61/2c.
Those figures come from the plugging department or he can get them
from the goods as they are delivered to the packing room, by knowing
the styles and numbers, you can tell whether it is a tipped or untipped
pencil. You get that from the shipping room and the other from the
metal room. He arrives at the figures on the reports turned in. It re-
quires a good deal of calculation, mostly multiplying. The next figure is
under tips, 1374 gross at ten cents. He gets that from the packing room.
The ten cents means what the tips cost to produce. That’s a stipulated
price. The next heading is lead, 747 gross at 15c. and 1955 gross at ten
cents. He has to go through these reports the same way except he doesn’t
have to work the cost of that, it’s taken care of in the account. He has to
arrive at the number of gross, but the cost is fixed. The next item is sup-
plied at 5c. per gross, boxes 3771 at 2c., assortment boxes 279 at 10c.,
wrappers 2535 at lc. He gets those reports from the boxes of pencils in
the packing room. He gets the reports as to the rubbers and the labels
from the packing room. The cost per gross is fixed, but he has to figure
out the quantity. The next item is assortment boxes, wrappers, skele-
tons. The next item, cartons. The next item is pay roll, Bell Street. The
next, slats from the slat mills. As the slats are delivered from the slat
mill, a report comes with it, and those reports are taken at the end of the
week and added up. There are about five of those shipments during the

week. He has to take the data that accompanys each shipment and adds
all that up at the end of the week. The next item is “pencils packed,”
(top of sheet). There are 24 itemized here, and the word “jobs” implies
I don’t know how many different kind of jobs. There are 24 different
kind of pencils. He puts them there as having been produced that week.
He got the reports as to the quantity of each kind of pencil and had to
tabulate all those reports and arrive at the total of each kind. No, I
don’t think he had to figure out the cost of production of each kind, but
he figures the quantity of each kind of pencil and shows its value on the
sheet. Starnes and Black and Anderson and Dobbs were there on Sun-
day morning. We went all over the factory. I don’t remember about
hearing of any blood being found on Sunday at all. There was a great
deal of excitement there that morning. We see spots all over the factory
floor. We have varnish spots, and people get their fingers cut, we have
every color spots you can think of. I have been working in factories for
24 years. It is a frequent occurrence in establishments where a large
number of ladies work that you will see blood spots around dressing
rooms. I have seen them a good many times. I have seen it at this fac-
tory. Mr. Frank had on a brown suit on Saturday and Monday. On
Sunday he had a different suit on. I never noticed any scratches, marks
or bruises on Mr. Frank on Sunday. There was a little girl in Mr.
Frank’s office on Saturday morning, by the name of Miss Mattie Smith,
and her sister-in-law’s time was wrong and Mr. Frank told her to wait a
few minutes and he would straighten it out for her. She had been paid
$3.10 too much, and she gave me back the money when she found it was
wrong and I gave it to Mr. Frank and he said he was glad because it bal-
anced his cash. She thenstarted out of the factory and got to the stair-
way and she came back again and said that her time was wrong the other
way, and I said “Little girl will it do all right to straighten it -Monday,”
and she said “Yes.” I then asked her how was her father, and she said,
“My father is dying, I think.” Then she spoke to me about getting some
assistance from the office for burial expenses, and she commenced to cry
and I walked down the steps with her to the front door. That was about
9:20. Mr. Frank stayed at the factory until 9:40, when we left together.
We went on up to the corner of Hunter and Forsyth, took a drink of soda-
water at Cruickshank’s at the corner of Forsyth and Hunter. He left me
then and started towards Montag’s. That’s the last I saw of him until
Sunday morning. The elevator box was unlocked Sunday morning, and
anybody could have pulled it open and started the elevator. The eleva-
tor makes some noise. It is driven by a motor. It makes more noise
when it stops at the bottom than when it starts. There is nothing to stop
it except when it hits the bottom. I have seen these cords that we tie up
slats and pencils with in every part of the factory. I have raised sand
about finding them in the basement; they go down in the garbage. There
are several truck loads of waste and debris every day. The general clean-
ing up of the premises was had on Tuesday after the murder. The fac-
tory is five stories high, between 150 and 200 feet in length and 75 or 80

feet wide. It is an extremely dirty place. In some places the floor is
gummed an inch thick, and in some parts of the metal room it is one-
eighth of an inch thick, it might not average that all over. It is always
dark on the first floor, through the hall toward the elevator. On a cloudy
day it is very dark. We keep a light burning there most of the time. I
couldn’t say whether we had cleaned up all the trash and rubbish around
the factory, because there are corners and crevices which we don’t usu-
ally get to. Saturday, April 26th, was a dark, bad, misty day, until about
9:30. It was cloudy most of the day. It was dark there around the ele-
vator on the first floor and we had big heavy boxes piled up there. One
of them must have been almost as large as a piano box. If a man got be-
tween those boxes, we would have had to hunt to find him. It is very dark
on the second floor between the clock and the metal room. It is dark be-
hind the ladies dressing room and on the side next to the ladies’ toilet.
As you go to the stairs from the metal room, it is very dark. A person
sitting at Mr. Frank’s desk in his office could not see anyone coming up
those stairs. It would be impossible to see anyone coming up those steps
from anywhere in Mr. Frank’s inner office, you would have to go outside
of it. There is no lock on the metal room doors. In the metal room there
are a great many vats and a great many boxes and things containing
stock and goods just south of the ladies’ dressing room. It is piled up
very bad back there. Averaged anywhere from 2 to 6 or 8 feet in height.
It isn’t used at all except for storage. The metal room contains three or
four large vats that have got lids on them. They are shallow, but they
are large inside. They are about a foot and a half deep. Nobody is sup-
posed to be in any part of the building on Sunday, that is the only time
we don’t have a watchman. The factory is supposed to be locked en-
tirely. The elevator steel cables have some slack in them. It isn’t like a
stiff iron in them. It would shake when you catch hold of it. There are
two cables, you pull the right one to come down and the left one to go up.
You can catch it and shake it in your hand. Yes, Mr. Frank is a small,
thin man, about 125 or 130 pounds. Yes, Mr. Dorsey served a subpoena
on me to come down to his office. I didn’t know that he did not have any
right to subpoena me. Yes, I thought I was being subpoenaed to come
into court. They served two subpoenaes on me and sent for me one time.
The first time I went there, Chief Lanford, Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Stephens and
the stenographer was there. They all asked me questions. One would
ask me a question and before I got that answered, another would ask me
a question. The next time I went there, Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Starnes, Mr.
Campbell and the stenographer were there. Mr. Dorsey did all the ques-
tioning this time. When Mr. Frank was engaged on his work in the fac-
tory he was very intent on his work, very earnest and industrious. I
don’t think a day passed at the factory that Mr. Frank did not get ner-
vous. When anything went wrong he would wring his hands and I have
seen him push his hands through his hair. When things went wrong it
would upset him. If anything out of the ordinary happened I have seen
him a thousand times, I suppose, rub his hands. At a factory like this

things don’t usually go right all day, there is something wrong all the
time. When anything went wrong it rattled him and he would fre-
quently call on me to straighten it out. He would show the most nervous-
ness when he would go over to Montag’s with the mail, and he would
raise sand about something and he would come back very nervous. If
Mr. Frank saw anything going wrong inside the factory, he would refer
the matter to me. I never saw Mr. Frank speak to Mary Phagan. I don’t
know whether he knew her or not. I didn’t know we had a girl by that
name in the factory until I found it out afterwards. The two men work-
ing up in the fourth floor all day Saturday could have come to the second
floor into the metal room and down into the basement if they wanted to,
they had the whole run of the factory. Yes, I have seen all kinds of
papers down in the basement. The paper that note is written on is a
blank order pad. It is either the carbon or white sheet, one is white and
one is yellow. That kind of paper is liable to be found all over the build-
ing for this reason, they write an order, and some times fail to get the
carbon under it, and at other times they have to change the order and
tear it out and throw it in the waste basket in the office and from there it
gets into the trash. That kind of little pad is used all over the factory.
The foreladies make their memorandum on that kind of tablet. You will
find them all around. It is one of the biggest wastes around the place.
They are all over the building, and any man that worked around the fac-
tory or ran the elevator or swept up the different floors would be more
likely to come across them than anyone else, because they are thrown on
the floor. There was an order to keep the clock door locked, but on this
occasion the key was lost and the clock door was open. When I got there
Sunday morning the clock door was unlocked. Mr. Frank could not have
unlocked it because the key was lost. With the clock door unlocked, any-
one who understands the clock, could have punched for all night in five
or ten minutes. I made the same mistake Mr. Frank made in thinking
that all the punches had been made all right. I looked over the factory
at noon to-day and compared it with some points on this picture (Exhibit
“A” for State). This big space in the cellar appears to be short. Those
steps in the cellar are much longer in reality. The platform itself is
about 15 feet long, and the incline is 17 feet, making 32 feet the length of
it. The distance between the walls of Mr. Frank’s office and the elevator
shaft is 5 feet to 5 inches. The elevator shaft is ten feet, but on the pic-
ture the space between the elevator shaft and Mr. Frank’s office looks al-
most as wide as the elevator shaft itself. One is ten feet and the other is
5Kv/. As to what occasions I recall seeing Mr. Frank nervous, I recall
onee that he came in one afternoon on a street car when it ran over a little
child. He came in about 2:30 and he couldn’t work any more on his books
until a quarter after four. He trembled just as much on that occasion as
he did on the Sunday after Mary Phagan was killed. Another time I re-
member when I went over to the main factory and he and Mr. Montag
had a fuss on the fourth floor. Mr. Montag hollered at him considerably
and he was very nervous the rest of the evening, he shook and trembled.

He says “Mr. Darley I just can’t work,” and some of the boys told me he
took some spirits of ammonia for his nerves. Everybody was excited in
the factory that morning after Mary Phagan was killed. Starnes and
Black and Rogers were there and it seems like they were all excited.
Looked like everybody was worried. As to another mistake in the pic-
ture (State’s Exhibit A), the bottom of the ladder in the basement is
much closer to the elevator than what is shown on the picture. It is
about 6 feet. On the picture it looks to be about 10 feet and the toilet in
the basement is closer to the wall than the picture shows, it is right up
against the wall. The picture doesn’t show the Clarke Woodenware par-
tition back of the elevator. The door to the Clarke Woodenware Com-
pany also is closer to the elevator than the picture shows. On the stairs
from the first to the second floor there are double doors instead of single
doors as shown on the picture. The picture shows up Frank’s inner of-
fice a good deal larger than the other office. As a matter of fact the outer
office is larger. The outer office is 12 feet 4 inches wide. The inner office
ten feet 3. The picture shows a great big wide place for a door between
the inside office and the outside office, making it look like a double door.
That is a representation to show a full view from Frank’s desk into the
hall, as a matter of fact it is a single door, standard size. It looks like it
was drawn to open up a space to give as much view as possible out into
the hall. The safe is shown to be about half its real size on this picture.
On the picture it is shown to be about one-third the width of the door, as
a matter of fact it is about the same size. When the safe door is open, it
shuts off three-fourths of the view from Frank’s office out into the hall,
unless you stand up high enough to look over it. The picture also shows
the south wall of the outer office on a line with the clock. The picture
doesn’t show up the wardrobe in the inner office, nor the two cabinets
that are in there. I don’t think it is a very accurate picture. It opens up
Frank’s inner office a whole lot better than it really opens up. Sitting at
Frank’s desk and looking out through the door towards the clock, in re-
ality you have a looking space of only 25 inches. You can just see about
four numbers on clock number 2. You could not see anywhere near the
stair case, or in the neighborhood of it.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I felt nervous from the time they told me the girl was dead, until I
left the building. I was not trembling, I was simply excited and worried.
Well, Starnes was nervous. He looked as if he were worried. He seemed
nervous both in talk and manner. I can say the same thing of the rest of
the officers who were there. Mr. Frank was more nervous than the others.
The men were all about as nervous on Monday and Tuesday. Every-
body seemed to be in a turmoil and shaking. Mr. Holloway and Mr.
Schiff were shaking. I noticed Mr. Schiff’s hands shaking Monday
morning. Mr. Holloway was about in the same shape. Mr. Frank was
very nervous Tuesday after the extra came out saying that they were

going to arrest him. That was about 15 or 20 minutes before they ar-
rested him. As to who gets up the data for Mr. Frank for the financial
sheets, Mr. Loeb some times, and Mr. Gantt used to get up some, and Mr.
Schiff gets it up some times. Mr. Frank got it up himself, some times.
No, I do not know that Mr. Schiff furnished it to him all the time. I never
noticed whether Lee was nervous or not at any time, but of course, he
looked bothered and worried. Mr. Frank told me that the slip he took out
of the clock Sunday morning had been punched regularly. I made the
same mistake standing right there by his side. I didn’t see Mr. Frank
date the slip. It ought to have been dated the 26th. The slip I saw didn’t
have any time on it except the watchman’s time. I don’t know whether
I would know it or not, to identify. The slips are not made in duplicate.
As to whether there is any mark on the slip to enable any one to identify
it, as the one taken out that night, my memory is that it was started at
6:01 or 6:32. Of course nobody could ten who punched the clock, one
man’s punch is just like another. That diagram or picture (State’s Ex-
hibit A) is a fair representation of the building as a whole, it is not a fair
representation of the interior. I never knew there were any stairs in the
basement until this matter came up. They are never used to my knowl-
edge. There is a way of closing the door in rear of second floor from up-
stairs. The regular place of keeping these order blank books is in the
outer office. There is no regular place in the basement to keep paper, but
it is thrown out in the waste basket and gets down in the trash. There is
no use for that paper anywhere but in the office, but that doesn’t prevent
it from being scattered around. I have scratch pads of that shape seat-
tered around even in the basement. That scratch pad is used all over the
factory, everywhere there is a foreman or a forelady. No, not in the area
around the elevator there. The trash is carried downstairs right in front
of the boiler. Sometimes if they are in a hurry they leave it around the
elevator for a little while, and when I go down I make the negro move it
to the boiler. It is usually burned. Some of it may stay there for a week,
some of it burned right away.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DEFENDANT.
As to people being nervous, Montag and Frank merely had some
words when Frank became so nervous. Schiff was trembling Monday,
Holloway also, I noticed Miss Flowers began to cry and scream and I had
to go in there and get hold of her myself. That was Tuesday morning.
The whole factory was wrought up. I couldn’t hardly keep anybody at
work. I had to let them go on Monday, and I wished I had let them go
for the rest of the week, for I couldn’t get any work out of them. I
wouldn’t say that I couldn’t get any work out of Christopher Columbus
Barrett, since, but he has lost a good deal of time. I would have to look
to the pay roll to tell.
W. F. ANDERSON, sworn for the State.
I was at police headquarters Saturday, April 26th. I got a call from

the night, watchman at the pencil factory. He said a woman was dead at
‘the factory. I asked him if it was a white woman or a negro woman. He
said it was a white woman. We went there in an automobile, shook the
door and Newt Lee came down from the second floor and carried us back
to the ladder that goes down through the scuttle hole. About 3:30 I
called up Mr. Frank on the telephone and got no answer. I heard the
telephone rattling and buzzing. I continued to call for about five min-
utes. I told Central that there had been a girl killed in the factory and
.I wanted to get Mr. Frank. I called Mr. Haas and Mr. Montag, too. I
,got a response from both, I think a lady answered the telephone. I got
.them in a few minutes. I tried to get Mr. Frank again about four o’clock.
Central said she rang and she couldn’t get him. There was some blood
on the girl’s underclothes.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
There was a wound on the left-hand side of the girl’s head. The
-blood was dried up. It was wet right next to the skin. Lee said over the
telephone that it was a white girl. It took us about three minutes to get
to the factory from the police station, just as quick as the automobile
could get us there. We got there inside of five minutes after I received
his telephone message. Lee had a smoky lantern. You couldn’t see very
-far with it. It was smoked up right smart. Lee said he had been to the
closet and had his lantern sitting down there and he looked over and saw
the lady. He said, he saw her while he was standing up. I said he
couldn’t see her. You could see the bulk of anything that far, but you
couldn’t tell that far whether it was a person. He told me when I first
got him that he had his lantern sitting down right in front of him. The
body was lying sort of catecornered and on the left side of the body I saw
a number of tracks which lead from the body to the shaving room. There
is an opening from the place where the body lay into the shaving room.
I found a pencil down there. There are plenty of pencils and trash in the
basement. The trash was all up next to the boiler.

H. L. PARRY, sworn in behalf of the State.
I reported the statement of Leo M. Frank before the coroner’s jury.
I have been a stenographer for thirty years and considered an expert.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Newt Lee was asked the following questions and gave the following
answers at the coroner’s jury: “Q. Had you ever seen him change that
before? A. Well, he put the tape in once before. Q. When was that?
A. I don’t know, sir, when it was, it was one night. Q. How long did it
take him the first time you ever saw him put the tape on ? A. I never
paid any attention to him. Q. Well, about how long did it take him, five
minutes? A. No, sir, it didn’t take him that long. Q. Did it take him
a minute? A. I couldn’t tell exactly how long. Q. How long did it take
the other night, on Saturday night? A. Well, it took him a pretty good
little bit, because he spoke about it. He said it’s pretty hard, you know,
to get on.” I don’t know whether he swore anything, else on that partic-
ular subject without examining the record.

G. C. FEBRUARY, sworn for the State.
I was present at Chief Lanford’s office when Leo M. Frank and L. Z.
Rosser were there. I took down Mr. Frank’s statement stenographically.
I don’t remember Frank’s answers in detail, Mr. Rosser was looking out
of the window most of the time. He didn’t say anything while I was in
there. This (Exhibit B, State), report is correct report of what Mr.
Frank said. It was made on Monday, April 28th.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I believe Mr. Rosser and Mr. Frank were in the room when I came in.
It was sometime in the forenoon. I have never been a court stenographer
except in Recorder’s court. I am Chief Lanford’s private secretary. Mr.
Black was in there during the latter part of Mr. Frank’s statement. Chief
Lanford asked Mr. Frank if he changed clothes. He showed part of his
shirt and opened his trousers. He showed his clothing to Chief Lanford
at the end of the statement. I wrote the statement out in longhand the
same day. I don’t remember exactly when.

ALBERT McKNIGHT, sworn for the State.
My wife is Minola McKnight. She cooks for Mrs. Selig. Between 1
and 2 o’clock on Memorial Day I was at the home of Mr. Frank to see my
wife. He came in close to 1:30. He did not eat any dinner. He came in,
went to the sideboard of the dining room, stayed there a few minutes and
then he goes out and catches a car. Stayed there about 5 or 10 minutes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Mrs. Selig and Mrs. Frank were present when Mr. Frank came in. I
was in the cook room. There is a swinging door between the dining room
and the cook room. The dining room door was open. The door swings
back and forth, but they don’t keep it shut. You can see from the kitchen
into the dining room. You can look in the mirror in the corner and see
all over the dining room. I looked in the mirror in the corner and saw
him. You can look in that mirror and see in the sitting room and in the
dining room. I have no idea how big the kitchen or dining room is. I
was never in the dining room in my life. I was sitting at the back door
in the kitchen, at the right side of the back door, up against the wall.
Minola went into the dining room, and stayed a minute or two, no more
than two minutes. She came back into the kitchen. I don’t know
whether the other folks ate dinner or not, I did not see ‘Mr. Selig. I came
to the house from my house in the rear of 318 Pulliam Street. After com-

ing to the sideboard Mr. Frank went into the sitting room where Mr.
Selig was. I didn’t see Mr. Selig, but heard him talking. I told about
Mr. Frank not eating after I came back from Birmingham, I told it to
Mr. Craven of the Beck & Gregg Company. It was before Minola went
down to the jail. Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Morse, Mr. Martin and
Mr. Dorsey all talked to me. I didn’t go down to see Minola at the sta-
tion house. I didn’t see Mrs. Frank or Mrs. Selig that Saturday through
the mirror. I didn’t keep my eye on the mirror all the time. I couldn’t
tell who was in the dining room without looking in the mirror. Mr.
Frank got there not later than 1:30. Mr. Frank came on back to Pulliam
Street and caught the Georgia Avenue car at the corner of Georgia Ave-
nut and Pulliam Street. I am certain that he caught the Georgia Avenue
car at Pulliam Street and Georgia Avenue.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The Selig residence is on East Georgia Avenue between Pulliam and
Washington Streets. I don’t know exactly the nearest place for Mr.
Frank to have gotton on the car, Washington Street or Pulliam Street.
I suppose Pulliam Street is nearer to town than Washington. I cer-
tainly saw Mr. Frank that day, from the kitchen where I was sitting.

MISS HELEN FERGUSON, sworn for the State.
My name is Helen Ferguson, I worked at the National Pencil Com-
pany on Friday the 25th. I saw Mr. Frank Friday, April 25th, about 7
o’clock in the evening and asked for Mary Phagan’s money. Mr. Frank
said “I can’t let you have it,” and before he said anything else I turned
around and walked out. I had gotten Mary’s money before, but I didn’t
get it from Mr. Frank.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
When I got Mary’s money before I went up there and called my num-
ber and called her number, and I got mine and hers. I didn’t ask the man
that was paying off this time to let me have it. I don’t remember whether
Mr. Schiff was in the office or not when I asked Mr. Frank for Mary’s
money. Some of the office force were there, but I can’t recall their name.
I worked in the metal department about two years. I never saw little
Mary Phagan in Mr. Frank’s office. I don’t think Mr. Frank knew my
name, he knew my face. It has been some time since I asked for Mary’s
pay by number. I do not believe that I ever saw Mr. Frank speak to
Mary Phagan.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I don’t know who paid off on Friday, April 25th.

R. L. WAGGONER, sworn for the State.
I am a city detective. On Tuesday, April 29th, from ten thirty until
a little after 11 in the morning I was in front of the pencil factory on the
other side of the street. I would continually see Mr. Frank walk to the
window and look down and twist his hands when he would come to the
window looking down on the sidewalk. He did this about 12 times when
I was there in about 30 minutes. I was in the automobile with Mr. Frank
and Mr. Black and his leg was shaking. He was under arrest at the time.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t know what he was doing in the office. I saw some other peo-
ple up there that I didn’t recognize. I was sent to the pencil factory to
notice Mr. Frank and the pencil factory. I thought Mr. Frank would be
arrested.

J. L. BEAVERS, sworn for the State.
I am Chief of Police of the City of Atlanta. I was at the pencil fac-
tory on Tuesday, April 29th, and saw what I took to be a splotch of blood
on the floor right near this little dressing room on office floor, seemed to
be as big as a quarter in the center and scattered out in the direction of
this room near the door. There was one spot and some others scattered
around that.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
It may have been Monday that I was at the pencil factory. I don’t
know whether it was blood or not. It looked like blood.

R. M. LASSITER, sworn for the State.
I am a city policeman. On Sunday morning, April 27th, I found a
parasol in the bottom of the elevator shaft. It was lying about the cen-
ter of the shaft. I also found a ball of rope twine, small wrapping twine,
and also something that looked like a person’s stool.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I noticed evidence of dragging from the elevator in the basement.
As I passed the rear door at 12 o’clock, the door was closed. The um-
brella was not crushed. I found it between 6 and 7 o’clock in the morn-
ing. The elevator comes down there and hits the ground plump at the
bottom of the basement.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I don’t know whether the elevator shaft has a cement bottom or not.
There is a whole lot of trash at the bottom.

L. 0. GRICE, sworn for the State.
My name is L. 0. Grice. I was at the National Pencil Company’s
place on Sunday morning, April 27th. A small sized man, defendant
here, attracted my attention, on account of his nervousness.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I was called as a witness in this case one week after it started. I
told some of my friends about Mr. Frank’s nervousness and’they advised
me to go to Dorsey. I never knew or saw Mr. Frank before. When we
were told of how the little child was murdered, it excited me some.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I don’t recall trembling any. I am pretty sure I didn’t because my
friend that I went to Opelika with that morning suggested that I was
trembling when I went through there, and I told him I was not. He was
not there when I went through the factory and when I told him about it
he said I bet you were scared. He walked around this way a little bit.
He was kind of shaking like that (illustrating). His fingers were tremb-
ling.

MELL STANFORD, sworn for the State (re-called).

The door in the rear part of the factory on the second floor on Fri-
day evening was barred. There is no way in the rear of the building to
come down to the second floor when the door is barred except the fire es-
cape, and you have to be on office floor to undo the door. The area around
the elevator shaft on the first floor near the hole and radiator was cleaned
up after the murder. It was the early part of the week after the murder.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I didn’t clean it myself. I saw it cleaned. I passed by as it was be-
ing cleaned up.

W. H. GREESLING, sworn for the State.

I am a funeral director and embalmer. I moved the body of Mary
Phagan at 10 minutes to four o’clock, April 27th, in the morning. The
cord (Exhibit C, State) was around the neck. The knot was on the right
side of the neck and was lying kind of looped around the head. It wasn’t
very tight at the time I moved it. There was an impress of an eighth of
an inch on the neck. The rag (Exhibit D, State) was around her hair
and over her face. The tongue an inch and a quarter out of her mouth
sticking out. The body was rigid; looking like it had been dead for some
time. My opinion is that she had been dead ten or fifteen hours, or prob-
ably longer. The blood was very much congested. The blood had set-
tled in her face because she was lying on her face. Blood begins to settle

at death or a very few minutes after death. After Dr. Hurt examined
her nails, I did. I found some dirt and dust under the nails. I discov-
ered some urine or her underclothes and there were some dry blood
splotches there. The right leg of the drawers was split with a knife or
torn right up the seam. Her right eye was very dark; looked like it was
hit before death because it was very much swollen; if it had been hit af-
ter death there wouldn’t have been any swelling. I found a wound 21/4
inches on the back of the head. It was made before death because it bled
a great deal. The hair was matted with blood and very dry. If it had
been made after death, there would have been no blood there. There is
no circulation after death. The skull wasn’t crushed; the scalp was
broken. The indication was that it was made before death. There was a
scar over each eye about the size of a dime. I didn’t notice any scratches
on her nose. I can’t state whether the defendant ever looked at the body
or not. There was some discharge on her underclothes which was very
dry and if she had been dead a short time, it would have been wet yet.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I judge the length of time the corpse had been dead by the rigor mor-
tis. This is very indefinite at times. It begins before death. If she died
of strangulation, I would expect rigor mortis to begin within an hour. I
have never had any experience about as a case of strangulation so as to
determine when rigor mortis began and when it broke. There is no cer-
tainty about how long a corpse is dead. All the blood was dry when I ex-
amined the body. Mr. Rogers and Mr. Black came with Mr. Frank and
asked me to take him back to where the girl was. I took them back there,
pulled a light, pulled the sheet back, and moved the revolving table and
walked out between them. Mr. Frank was near the right-hand going in.
Mr. Black was at the left. I took a half gallon of blood from the little
girl’s body, enough to clear up the face and body. I injected one gallon
of the formula into the corpse. Formaldehyde is a constituent part of
* the embalming fluid used. I prepared the little girl properly for burial.
There was no mutilation at all on the body. I judged she died of stran-
gulation because the rope was tight enough to choke her to death and her
tongue being an inch and a quarter out of the mouth, showed she died
from strangulation.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I don’t think the little girl lost much blood.

DR. CLAUDE SMITH, sworn for the State.

I am physician and City Bacteriologist and Chemist. These chips
(Exhibit E, State) appear to be the specimen which the detectives.
brought to my office and which I examined. They had considerable dirt

on them and some coloring stain. On one of them I found some blood
corpuscles. I do not know whether it was human blood. This shirt (Ex-
hibit E for State) appears to be the same shirt brought to my office by
detectives which I examined. I examined spots and it showed blood
stain. I got no odor from the arm pits that it had been worn. The blood
I noticed was smeared a little on the inside in places. It didn’t extend
out on the outside. The blood on shirt was somewhat on the inside of the
garment high up about the waist line which to my mind could not have
been produced by turning up the tail.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I found grit and stain on all of the chips. I couldn’t tell the one that
I found blood on. I did the work in the ordinary way. The whole sur-
face of the chips was coated with dirt. I couldn’t tell whether the blood
stain was fresh or old. I have kept blood corpuscles in the laboratory for
several years. I found probably three or four or five blood corpuscles in
a field. I don’t know how much blood was there. A drop or half drop
would have caused it, or even less than that. Rigor mortis begins very
soon after death. Sometimes starts quicker, but usually starts very
soon. I could not say when rigor mortis would end.

DR. J. W. HURT, sworn for the state.

I am County Physician. I saw the body of Mary Phagan on Sunday
morning, the 27th of April. She had a scalp wound on the left side of her
head about 21/2 inches long, about 4 inches from the top to the left ear
through the scalp to the skull. She had a black contused eye. A number
of small minor scratches on the face. The tongue was protruding about
a half an inch through the teeth. There was a wound on the left knee,
about 2 inches below the knee. There were some superficial scratches on
the left and right elbow. There was a cord around the neck and this cord
was imbedded into the skin and in my opinion she died from strangula-
tion. This cord (Exhibit “C” for State) looks like the cord that was
around her neck. There was swelling on the neck. In my opinion the
cord was put on before death. The wound on the back of the head seemed
to have been made with a blunt-edged instrument and the blow from
down upward. The scalp wound was made before death. It was calcu-
lated to produce unconsciousness. The black eye appeared to have been
made by some soft instrument in that the skin was not broken. I think
the scratches on the face were made after death. I examined the hymen.
It was not intact. There was blood on the drawers. I discovered no vio-
lence to the parts. There was blood on the parts. I didn’t know whether
it was fresh blood or menstrual blood. The vagina was a little larger
than the normal size of a girl of that age. It is my opinion that this en-
largement of the vagina could have been produced by penetration imme-
diately preceding death. She had a normal virgin uterus. She was not

pregnant. I made no examination of the blood vessels of the uterus or
womb.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

The body looked as if it had been dragged through dirt and cinders.
It is my impression that she was dragged face forward. If she had fallen
on the corner of the floor that was sharp edged, or the corner of an eleva-
tor shaft with an edge, it might have produced the wound. I do not know
of the kind of instrument that produced the wound. There was no contu-
sion on the inside of the skull, but the skull wasn’t fractured. Neither
the brain nor the meningis were affected. There was a little contusion on
the inner lining of the skull. There was no bleeding on the brain tissues.
I don’t know whether it would produce unconsciousness or not. I was
never asked before to examine the inside of anybody’s skull to determine
the fact whether death or unconsciousness resulted from the wound. It
is my impression that this lick did produce unconsciousness, but I won’t
swear it, I don’t know. The hemorrhage which we discovered in the skull
caused no pressure on the brain. That was no sign that unconsciousness
resulted. When a person is strangled to death the lungs ought to show
congestion. I never examined this girl’s lungs. When I saw the body on
April 27th I gave it as my opinion that she had been dead from 16 to 20
hours at 9 o’clock Sunday morning. Rigor mortis was complete. It is a
very variable thing. I couldn’t tell whether the blood on her under-
clothes was menstrual blood or not. The hymen was not intact, and I was
not able to say when this hymen was ruptured. I saw no indication of an
injury to the hymen. The appearance of the blood on the parts was char-
acteristic of a menstrual flow. There was no laceration on the vagina,
and no mutilation on this girl’s body except those wounds on the face,
head and legs. The size of the vagina is no indication of anything except
the anatomy and the natural build of the person. It is no indication of
rape. I found no outward signs of rape. I have formed no opinion
whether this little girl was raped or had ever had intercourse with any-
body. There was no external marks of violence. I told Col. Rosser at
the Coroner’s inquest that this little girl had her monthly period on, but
I got that from somebody else. I did not conclude that from my exami-
nation. The monthly period causes some inflammation and congestion
in the blood vessels of the ovaries and uterus. The vagina itself might
have some different appearance. I was present when Dr. Harris made
the post mortem examination of this girl. Cabbage is digested better by
some people than others. It depends on the individual very much. It is
considered hard to digest. It depends largely on mastication. You can
chew up so thoroughly that it would go down into the stomach almost a
liquid, but it would not be digested until the stomach took up that chewed
mass. It would take a much longer time to digest and assimilate unmas-
ticated cabbage than if it had been thoroughly chewed. It takes about
3 1/2 hours to digest cabbage properly masticated, and it would take lon-

ger if the cabbage had been taken into the stomach actually or practi-
cally whole. Digestion continues partially in unconsciousness. It is a
guess to say whether the girl was conscious or not. I would not under-
take to give an opinion how long she remained unconscious. I would not
undertake to give an opinion and don’t know of any way of telling ten
days after death how long a distended condition of the vagina existed
before death.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I could not detect the hymen from a digital and occular examination.
Ordinary normal menses would produce a dilation’of the blood vessels in
the womb. The blood, flowing over the hymen I think would produce a
little inflammation at the hymen, but if the hymen was broken down, I
don’t know that menstruation would have any affect upon the hymen. If
the menstruation was about off, then I would say that any undue excite-
ment might produce the flow again, or increase the flow that was already
there. The contents of this bottle (Exhibit “G,” State) didn’t stay in
the stomach very long.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I wouldn’t undertake to say how long that cabbage (Exhibit “G,”
State) had been in the child’s stomach. A blow on the back of the head
might blacken one or both eyes.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I think excitement could produce flow from the uterus. I’don’t think
it would cause any discoloration of the walls of the vagina, e~ept from
the blood.
DR. H. F. HARRIS, sworn for the State.
I am a practicing physician. I made an examination of the body of
Mary Phagan on May 5th. On removing the skull I found there was no
actual break of the skull, but a little hemorrhage under the skull, corre-
sponding to point where blow had been deliver-ed, which shows that the
blow was hard enough to have made the person unconscious. This wound
on the head was not sufficient to have caused death. I think beyond any
question she came to her death from strangulation from this cord being
wound around her neck. The bruise around the eye was caused by a soft
instrument, because it didn’t show the degree of contusion that would
have been produced by a hard instruiment. The outside cuticle of the
skin wasn’t broken. The injury to the eye and scalp were caused before
death. I examined the contents of the stomach, finding 160 cubic centi-
meters of cabbage and biscuit, or wheaten bread. It had progressed very
slightly towards digestion. It is impossible for one to say absolutely how
long this cabbage had been in the stomach, but I feel confident that she
was either killed or received the blow on the back of the head within a
half hour after she finished her meal. I have some cabbage here from two

normal persons. Here was same meal taken of cabbage and wheaten
bread by two men of normal stomach, and contents taken out within an
hour. We found there was very little cabbage left. I made an examina-
tion of the privates of Mary Phagan. I found no spermatozoa. On the
walls of the vagina there was evidences of violence of some kind. The
epitheleum was pulled loose, completely detached in places, blood vessels
were dilated immediately beneath the surface and a great deal of hemor-
rhage in the surrounding tissues. The dilation of the blood vessels indi-
cated to me that the injury had been made in the vagina some little time
before death. Perhaps ten to fifteen minutes. It had occurred before
death by reason of the fact that these blood vessels were dilated. Inflam-
mation had set in and it takes an appreciable length of time for the pro-
cess of inflammatory change to begin. There was evidence of violence in
the neighborhood of the hymen. Rigor mortis varies so much that it is
not accurate to state how long after death it sets in. It may begin in a
few minutes and may be delayed for hours. I could not state from the
examination how long Mary Phagan was dying. It is my opinion that
she lived from a half to three-quarters of an hour after she ate her meal.
The evidence of violence in the vagina had evidently been done just be-
fore death. The fact that the child was strangled to death was indicated
by the lividity, the blueness of the parts, the congestion of the tongue
and mouth and the blueness of the hands and fingernails. The lungs had
the peculiar appearance which is always produced after embalming when
formaldehyde is used. I am of the opinion that the wound on the back of
the head could not have been produced by this stick (Exhibit 48 of De-
fendant). I made a microscopic examination of the vagina and uterus.
Natural menses would cause an enlargement of the uterus, but not of the
vagina. In my opinion the menses could not have caused any dilation of
the blood vessels and discoloration of the walls. From my own experi-
ments I find that the behavior of the stomach after taking a small meal
of cabbage and bread is practically the same as taking some biscuit and
water alone. I examined Mary Phagan’s stomach. It was normal in size,
normal in position, and normal in every particular. I made a microscopic
examination of the contents in Mary Phagan’s case. It showed plainly
that it had not begun to dissolve, or only to a very slight degree, and in-
dicated that the process of digestion had not gone on to any extent at the
time that this girl was rendered unconscious. I found that the starch she
had eaten had undergone practically no alteration. The contents taken
from the little girl’s stomach was examined chemically and the result
showed that there were only slight traces of the first action of the diges-
tive juices on the starch. It was plainly evident that none of the mate-
rial had gone into the small intestines. As soon as food is put in the
stomach the beginning of the secretion of the hydrochloric acid is found.
It is from the quantity of this acid that the stomach secretes that doctors
judge the state and degree of digestion. In this case the acid had not
been secreted in such an excess that any of it had become what we call
free. In this case the amount of acid in this girl’s stomach was combined

and was 32 degrees. Ordinarily in a normal stomach at the end of an
hour it runs from 50 to 70 or 80. I found none of the pancreatic juices in
the stomach which are usually found, about an hour after digestion starts.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t remember when Mr. Dorsey first talked to me about making
this autopsy. As long as the heart was beating you could have put a piece
of rope around the neck of this little girl and produced the same results
as I found. I took about five or six ounces altogether out of the stomach.
It was all used up in making my experiments. I know of no experiments
made as to the effect of gastric juices where the patient is dead. The
juices of the body after death gradually evaporate. The chemical analy-
sis of each cabbage varies, not only in the plant but from the way it is
cooked. It is a very vague matter as to what influences may retard diges-
tion. Every individual is almost a law unto himself. To a certain extent
different vegetables affect different stomachs different ways, but the av-
erage normal stomach digests anything that is eaten within reason. Some
authorities claim that exercise will retard digestion. I don’t know that
mental activity would have very much effect in retarding the digestion.
It is the generally accepted opinion that food begins to pass out of the
stomach through the pyloris in about a half an hour. A great many things
pass out of the stomach that are not digested. The juices of the stomach
make no change in them. The stomach does not emulsify a solid. I never
knew a normal man who could digest a solid. The science of diges-
tion is rather a modern thing. I did not call in any chemist in making
this examination. I said it was impossible for any one to say absolutely
how long the cabbage had been in the stomach of Mary Phagan before
she met her death, not within a minute or five minutes, but I say it was
somewhere between one-half an hour and three-quarters. I am certain of
that. Of course, if digestion had been delayed this time element would
change. The violence to the private parts might have been produced by
the finger or by other means, but I found evidence of violence. It takes a
rather considerable knock to tear epithelium off to the extent that bleed-
ing would occur. I found the epithelium completely detached in places
and in other places it was not detached. A digital examination means
putting the finger in. The swelling and dilation of the blood vessels
could be seen only with a microscope. It is impossible to say how much
they were swollen. A scalp wound is very prone to bleed.

C. B. DALTON, sworn for the State.
I know Leo M. Frank, Daisy Hopkins, and Jim Conley. I have vis-
ited the National Pencil Company three, four or five times. I have been
in the office of Leo M. Frank two or three times. I have been down in the
basement. I don’t know whether Mr. Frank knew I was in the basement
or not, but he knew I was there. I saw Conley there and the night watch-
man, and he was not Conley. There would be some ladies in Mr. Frank’s

office. Sometimes there would be two, and sometimes one. May be they
didn’t work in the mornings and they would be there in the evenings.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I don’t recollect the first time I was in Mr. Frank’s office. It was last
fall. I have been down there one time this year but Mr. Frank wasn’t
there. It was Saturday evening. I went in there with Miss Daisy Hopkins.
I saw some parties in the office but I don’t know them. They were ladies.
Sometimes there would be two and sometimes more. I don’t know
whether it was the stenographer or not. I don’t recollect the next time I
saw him in his office. I never saw any gentlemen but Mr. Frank in there.
Every time I was in Mr. Frank’s office was before Christmas. Miss Daisy
Hopkins introduced me to him. I saw Conley there one time this year
and several times on Saturday evenings. Mr. Frank wasn’t there the last
time. Conley was sitting there at the front door. When I went down the
ladder Miss Daisy went with me. We went back by the trash pile in the
basement. I saw an old cot and a stretcher. I have been in Atlanta for
ten years. I have never been away over a week. I saw Mr. Frank about
two o’clock in the afternoon. There was no curtains drawn in the office.
It was very light in there. I went in the first office, near the stairway.
The night watchman I spoke of was a negro. I saw him about the first of
January. I saw a negro night watchman there between September and
December. I lived in Walton County for twenty years. I came right
here from Walton County. I was absent from Walton County once for
two or three years and lived in Lawrenceville. I have walked home from
the factory with Miss Laura Atkins and Miss Smith.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I gave Jim Conley a half dozen or more quarters. I saw Mr. Frank in
his office in the day time. Mr. Frank had Coca-Cola, lemon and lime and
beer in the office. I never saw the ladies in his office doing any writing.

RECALLED FOR CROSS EXAMINATION.
Andrew Dalton is my brother-in-law. John Dalton is a first cousin.
I am the Dalton that went to the chaingang for stealing in Walton County
in 1894. We all pleaded guilty. The others paid out. I don’t know how
long I served. I stole a shop hammer. That was in case No. L. There
were three cases and the sentences were concurrent. One of the other
Daltons stole a plow and I don’t know what the other one stole. I was
with them. In 1899 at the February term of Walton Superior Court I
was indicted for helping steal bale of cotton. In Gwinnett County I was
prosecuted for stealing corn, but I came clear.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
It has been 18 or 20 years since I have been in trouble. I was drunk
with the two Dalton boys when we got into that hammer and plow stock
scrape.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I don’t know whether I was indicted in 1906 in Walton County for
selling liquor. I know Dan Hillman and I know Bob Harris. I don’t
know whether I was indicted for selling liquor to them or not.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Miss Daisy Hopkins knows Mr. Frank. I have seen her talking to
him and she told me about it.

S. L. ROSSER, sworn for the State.
I am a city policeman. On Monday, April 28th, I went out to see
Mrs. White. On May 6th or 7th was the first time I knew Mrs, White
claimed to have seen a negro at’the factory on April 26th. These are the
same chips we had at factory. The club was not on floor by elevator the
day I searched the place. I had a flash light and searched for everything.
I would have seen it had it been there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I made no inquiry of her about this before. She volunteered the in-
formation when I came out the second time.

JAMES CONLEY, sworn for the State.
I had a little conversation with Mr. Frank on Friday, the 25th of
April. He wanted me to come to the pencil factory that Friday morning
that he had some work on the third floor he wanted me to do. All right,
I will talk louder. Friday evening about taree o’clock Mr. Frank come
to the fourth floor where I was working and said he wanted me to come to
the pencil factory on Saturday morning at 8:30; that he had some work
for me to do on the second floor. I have been working for the pencil com-
pany for a little over two years. Yes, I had gone back there that way for
Mr. Frank before, when he asked me to come back. I got to the pencil
factory about 8:30 on April 26th. Mr. Frank and me got to the door at
the same time. Mr. Frank walked on the inside and I walked behind him
and he says to me, “Good morning,” and I says, “Good morning, Mr.
Frank.” He says, “You are a little early this morning,” and I says,” No,
sir, I am not early.” He says, “Well, you are a little early to do what I
wanted you to do for me, I want you to watch for me like you have been
doing the rest of the Saturdays.” I always stayed on the first floor like
I stayed the 26th of April and watched for Mr. Frank, while he and a
young lady would be upon the second floor chatting, I don’t know what
they were doing. He only told me they wanted to chat. When young
ladies would come there, I would sit down at the first floor and watch the
door for him. I couldn’t exactly tell how many times I have watched the
door for him previous to April 26th, it has been several times that I
watched for him. I don’t know who would be there when I watched for
him, but there would be another young man, another young lady during
the time I was at the door. A lady for him and one for Mr. Frank. Mr.
Frank was alone there once, that was Thanksgiving day. I watched for
him. Yes, a woman came there Thanksgiving day, she was a tall, heavy
built lady. I stayed down there and watched the door just as he told me
the last time, April 26th. He told me when the lady came he would stomp
and let me know that was the one and for me to lock the door. Well, af-
ter the lady came and he stomped for me, I went and locked the door as
he said. He told me when he got through with the lady he would whistle
and for me then to go and unlock the door. That was last Thanksgiving
day, 1912. On April 26th, me and Mr. Frank met at the door. He says,
“What I want you to do is to watch for me to-day as you did other Satur-
days,” and I says, “All right.” I said,”Mr. Frank, I want to go to the
Capital City Laundry to see my mother,” and he said, “By the time you
go to the laundry and come back to Trinity Avenue, stop at the corner of
Nelson and Forsyth Streets until I go to Montags.” I don’t know exactly
what time I got to the corner of Nelson and Forsyth Streets, but I came
there sometime between 10 and 10:30. I saw Mr. Frank as he passed by
me, I was standing on the corner, he was coming up Forsyth Street to-
ward Nelson Street. He was going to Montag’s factory. While I was
there on the corner he said, “Ha, ha, you are here, is yer.” And I says,
“Yes, sir, I am right here, Mr. Frank.” He says, “Well, wait until I go
to Mr. Sig’s, I won’t be very long, I’ll be right back.” I says, “All right,
Mr. Frank, I’ll be right here.” I don’t know how long he stayed at Mon-
tag’s. He didn’t say anything when he came back from Montag’s, but
told me to come on. Mr. Frank came out Nelson Street and down For-
syth Street toward the pencil factory and I followed right behind. As
we passed up there the grocery store, Albertson Brothers, a young man
was up there with a paper sack getting some stuff out of a box on the
sidewalk, and he had his little baby standing by the side of him, and just
as Mr. Frank passed by him, I was a little behind Mr. Frank, and Mr.
Frank said something to me, and by him looking back at me and saying
something to me, he hit up against the man’s baby, and the man turned
around and looked to see who it was, and he looked directly in my face,
but I never did catch the idea what Mr. Frank said. Mr. Frank stopped
at Curtis’ Drug Store, corner Mitchell and Forsyth Streets, went into the
soda fountain. He came out and went straight on to the factory, me right
behind him. When we got to the factory we both went on the inside, and
Mr. Frank stopped me at the door and when he stopped me at the door he
put his hand on the door and turned the door and says: “You see, you
turn the knob just like this and there can’t nobody come in from the out-
side,” and I says, “All right,” and I walked back to a little box back
there by the trash barrel. He told me to push the box up against the trash
barrel and sit on it, and he says. “Now, there will be a young lady up
here after awhile, and me and her are going to chat a little,” and he says,
“Now, when the lady comes, I will stomp like I did before,” and he says,
“That will be the lady, and you go and shut the door,” and I says, “All
right, sir.” And he says, “Now, when I whistle I will be through, so you
can go and unlock the door and you come upstairs to my office then like
you were going to borrow some money for me and that will give the
young lady time to get out.” I says, “All right, I will do just as you
say,” and I did as he said. Mr. Frank hit me a little blow on my chest
and says, “Now, whatever you do, don’t let Mr. Darley see you.” I says,
“All right, I won’t let him see me.” Then Mr. Frank went upstairs and
he said, “Remember to keep your eyes open,” and I says, “All right, I
will, Mr. Frank.” And I sat there on the box and that was the last I seen
of Mr. Frank until up in the day sometime. The first person I saw that
morning after I got in there was Mr. Darley, he went upstairs. The next
person was Miss Mattie Smith, she went on upstairs, then I saw her come
down from upstairs. Miss Mattie walked to the door and stopped, and
Mr. Darley comes on down to the door where Miss Mattie was, and he
says,” Don’t you worry, I will see that you get that next Saturday. ” And
Miss Mattie came on out and went up Alabama Street and Mr. Darley
went back upstairs. Seemed like Miss Mattie was crying, she was wiping
her eyes when she was standing down there. This was before I went to
Nelson and Forsyth Streets. After we got back from Montag Brothers,
the first person I saw come along was a lady that worked on the fourth
floor, I don’t know her name. She went on up the steps. The next per-
son that came along was the negro drayman, he went on upstairs. He
was a peg-legged fellow, real dark. The next I saw this negro and Mr.
Holloway coming back down the steps. Mr. Holloway was putting on
his glasses and had a bill in his hands, and he went out towards the wagon
on the sidewalk, then Mr. Holloway came back up the steps, then after
Mr. Darley came down and left, Mr. Holloway came down and left. Then
this lady that worked on the fourth floor came down and left. The next
person I saw coming there was Mr. Quinn. He went upstairs, stayed
a little while and then came down. The next person that I saw was
Miss Mary Perkins, that’s what I call her, this lady that is dead, I
don’t know her name. After she went upstairs I heard her footsteps go-
ing towards the office and after she went in the office, I heard two people
walking out of the office and going like they were coming down the steps,
but they didn’t come down the steps, they went back towards the metal
department. After they went back there, I heard the lady scream, then
I didn’t hear no more, and the next person I saw coming in there was
Miss Monteen Stover. She had on a pair of tennis shoes and a rain coat.
She stayed there a pretty good while, it wasn’t so very long either. She
came back down the steps and left. After she came back down the steps
and left, I heard somebody from the metal department come running back
there upstairs, on their tiptoes, then I heard somebody tiptoeing back
towards the metal department. After that I kind of dozed off and went
to sleep. Next thing I knew Mr. Frank was up over my head stamping
and then I went and locked the door, and sat on the box a little while, and
the next thing I heard was Mr. Frank whistling. I don’t know how many
minutes it was after that I heard him whistle. When I heard him whist-
ling I went and unlocked the door just like he said, and went on up the
steps. Mr. Frank was standing up there at the top of the steps and shiv-
ering and trembling and rubbing his hands like this. He had a little rope
in his hands–a long wide piece of cord. His eyes were large and they
looked right funny. He looked funny out of his eyes. His face was red.
Yes, he had a cord in his hands just like this here cord. After I got up to
the top of the steps, he asked me,” Did you see that little girl who passed
here just a while ago?” and I told him I saw one come along there and
she come back again, and then I saw another one come along there and
she hasn’t come back down, and he says, “Well, that one you say didn’t
come back down, she came into my office awhile ago and wanted to know
something about her work in my office and I went back there to see if the
little girl’s work had come, and I wanted to be with the little girl, and
she refused me, and I struck her and I guess I struck her too hard and she
fell and hit her head against something, and I don’t know how bad she
got hurt. Of course you know I ain’t built like other men. The reason he
said that was, I had seen him in a position I haven’t seen any other man
that has got children. I have seen him in the office two or three times be-
fore Thanksgiving and a lady was in his office, and she was sitting down
in a chair (and she had her clothes up to here, and he was down on his
knees, and she had her hands on Mr. Frank. I have seen him another
time there in the packing room with a young lady lying on the table, she
was on the edge of the table when I saw her). He asked me if I wouldn’t
go back there and bring her up so that he could put her somewhere, and
he said to hurry, that there would be money in it for me. When I came
back there, I found the lady lying flat of her back with a rope around her
neck. The cloth was also tied around her neck and part of it was under
her head like to catch blood. I noticed the clock after I went back there
and found the lady was dead and came back and told him. The clock
was four minutes to one. She was dead when I went back there and I
came back and told Mr. Frank the girl was dead and he said “Sh-Sh!”
He told me to go back there by the cotton box, get a piece of cloth, put it
around her and bring her up. I didn’t hear what Mr. Frank said, and I
came on up there to hear what he said. He was standing on the top of
the steps, like he was going down the steps, and while I was back in the
metal department I didn’t understand what he said, and I came on back
there to understand what he did say, and he said to go and get a piece of
cloth to put around her, and I went and looked around the cotton box and
got a piece of cloth and went back there. The girl was lying flat on her
back and her hands were out this way. I put both of her hands down
easily, and rolled her up in the cloth and taken the cloth and tied her up,
and started to pick up her, and I looked back a little distance and saw her
hat and a piece of ribbon laying down and her slippers and I taken them
and put them all in the cloth and I ran my right arm through the cloth
and tried to bring it up on my shoulder. The cloth was tied just like a
person that was going to give out clothes on Mon~day, they get the clothes
and put them on- the inside of a sheet and take each corner and tie the
four corners together, and I run my right arm through the cloth after I
tied it that way and went to put it on my shoulder, and I found I couldn’t
get it on my shoulder, it was heavy and I carried it on my arm the best I
could, and when I got away from the little dressing room that was in the
metal department, I let her fall, and I was scared and I kind of jumped,
and I said, ‘Mr. Frank,, you will have to help me with this girl, she is
heavy,” and he come and caught her by the feet and I laid hold of her by
the shoulders, and when we got her that way I was backing and Mr. Frank
had her by the feet, and Mr. Frank kind of put her on me, he was nervous
and trembling, and after we got up a piece from where we got her at, he
let her feet drop and then he picked her up and we went on to the eleva-
tor, and he pulled down on one of the cords and the elevator wouldn’t go,
and he said, Wait, let me go in the office and get the key,” and he went
in the office and got the key and come back and unlocked the switchboard
and the elevator went down to the basement, and we carried her out and
I opened the cloth and rolled her out there on the floor, and Mr. Frank
turned around and went on up the ladder, and I noticed her hat and slip-
per and piece of ribbon and I said, “Mr. Frank, what am I going to do
with these things?” and he said, “Just leave them right there,” and I
taken the things and pitches them over in front of the boiler, and after
Mr. Frank had left I goes on over to the elevator and he said, “Come on
up and I will catch you on the first, floor,” and I got on the elevator and
started it to the first floor, and Mr. Frank was running up there. He
didn’t give me time to stop the elevator, he was so nervous and trembly,
and before the elevator got to the top of the first floor Mr. Frank made
the first, step onto the elevator and by the elevator being a little down
like that, he stepped down on it and hit me quite a blow right over about
my chest and that jammed me up against the elevator and when we got
near the second floor he tried to step off before it got to the floor and his
foot caught on the second floor as he was stepping off and that made him
stumble and he fell back sort of against me, and he goes on and takes the
keys back to his office and leaves the box unlocked. I followed him into
his private office and I sat down and he commenced to rubbing his hands
and began to rub back his hair and after awhile he got up and said,
“Jim,” and I didn’t say nothing, and all at once he happened to look out
of the door and there was somebody coming, and he said, ” My God, here
is Emma Clarke and Corinthia Hall,” and he said “Come over here Jim,
I have got to put you in this wardrobe, and he put me in this wardrobe,
and I stayed there a good while and they come in there and I heard them
go out, and Mr. Frank come there and said, “You are in a tight place,”
and I said “Yes,” and he said “You done very well.” So after they went
out and he had stepped in the hall and had come back he let me out of the
wardrobe, and he said “You sit down,” and I went and sat down, and
Mr. Frank sat down. But the chair he had was too little for him or too
big for him or it wasn’t far enough back or something. He reached on
the table to get a box of cigarettes and a box of matches, and he takes a
cigarette and a match and hands me the box of cigarettes and I lit one and
went to smoking and I handed him back the box of cigarettes, and he put
it back in his pocket and then he took them out again and said, “You can
have these,” and I put them in my pocket, and then he said, “Can you
write ?” and I said, “Yes, sir, a little bit,” and he taken his pencil to fix
up some notes. I was willing to do anything to help Mr. Frank because
he was a white man and my superintendent, and he sat down and I sat
down at the table and Mr. Frank dictated the notes to me. Whatever it
was it didn’t seem to suit him, and he told me to turn over and write
again, and I turned the paper and wrote again, and when I done that he
told me to turn over again and I turned over again and wrote on the next
page there, and he looked at that and kind of liked it and he said that was
all right. Then he reached over and got another piece of paper, a green
piece, and told me what to write. He took it and laid it on his desk and
looked at me smiling and rubbing his hands, and then he pulled out a
nice little roll of greenbacks, and he said, “Here is $200,” and I taken
the money and looked at it a little bit and I said, “Mr. Frank, don’t you
pay another dollar for that watchman, because I will pay him myself,”
and he said, “All right, I don’t see what you want to buy a watch for
either, that big fat wife of mine wanted me to buy an automobile and I
wouldn’t do it.” And after awhile Mr. Frank looked at me and said,
“You go down there in the basement and you take a lot of trash and burn
that package that’s in front of the furnace,” and I told him all right. But
I was afraid to go down there by myself, and Mr. Frank wouldn’t go down
there with me. He said, “There’s no need of my going down there,” and
I said, “Mr. Frank, you are a white man and you done it, and I am not
going down there and burn that myself.” He looked at me then kind of
frightened and he said “Let me see that money” and he took the money
back and put it back in his pocket, and I said, “Is this the way you do
things?” and he said, “You keep your mouth shut, that is all right.”
And Mr. Frank turned around in his chair and looked at the money and
he looked back at me and folded his hands and looked up and said, “Why
should I hang? I have wealthy people in Brooklyn,” and he looked down
when he said that, and I looked up at him, and he was looking up at the
ceiling, and I said,” Mr. Frank what about me?” and he said, ” That’s all
right, don’t you worry about this thing, you just come back to work Mon-
day like you don’t know anything, and keep your mouth shut, if you get
caught I will get you out on bond and send you away,” and he said,
“Can you come back this evening and do it?” and I said “Yes, that I was
coming to get my money.” He said, “Well, I am going home to get din-
ner and you come back here in about forty minutes and I will fix the
money,” and I said, “How will I get in?” and he said, “There will be a
place for you to get in all right, but if you are not coming back let me

know, and I will take those things and put them down with the body,”
and I said, “All right, I will be back in about forty minutes.” Then I
went down over to the beer saloon across the street and I took the ciga-
rettes out of the box and there was some money in there and I took that
out and there was two paper dollar bills in there and two silver quarters
and I took a drink, and then I bought me a double header and drank it
and I looked around at another colored fellow standing there and I asked
him did he want a glass of beer and he said “No,” and I looked at the
clock and it said twenty minutes to two and the man in there asked me
was I going home, and I said, “Yes,” and I walked south on Forsyth
Street to Mitchell and Mitchell to Davis, and I said to the fellow that was
with me “I am going back to Peters Street,” and a Jew across the street
that I owed a dime to called me and asked me about it and I paid him that
dime. Then I went on over to Peters Street and stayed there awhile.
Then I went home and I taken fifteen cents out of my pocket and gave a
little girl a nickle to go and get some sausage and then I gave her a
dime to go and get some wood, and she stayed so long that when she came
back I said, “I will cook this sausage and eat it and go back to Mr.
Frank’s,” and I laid down across the bed and went to sleep, and I didn’t
get up no more until half past six o’clock that night, that’s the last I saw
of Mr. Frank that Saturday. I saw him next time on Tuesday on the
fourth floor when I was sweeping. He walked up and he said, “Now re-
member, keep your mouth shut,” and I said, “All right,” and he said,
“If you’d come back on Saturday and done what I told you to do with it
down there, there wouldn’t have been no trouble.” This conversation
took place between ten and eleven o’clock Tuesday. Mr. Frank knew I
could write a little bit, because he always gave me tablets up there at the
office so I could write down what kind of boxes we had and I would give
that to Mr. Frank down at his office and that’s the way he knew I could
write. I was arrested on Thursday, May 1st, Mr. Frank told me just
what to write on those notes there. That is the same pad he told me to
write on (State’s Exhibit A). The girl’s body was lying somewhere
along there about No. 9 on that picture (State’s Exhibit A). I dropped
her somewhere along No. 7. We got on elevator on the second floor. The
box that Mr. Frank unlocked was right around here on side of elevator.
He told me to come back in about forty minutes to do that burning. Mr.
Frank went in the office and got the key to unlock the elevator. The notes
were fixed up in Mr. Frank’s private office. I never did know what be-
came of the notes. I left home that morning about 7 or 7:30. I noticed
the clock when I went from the factory to go to Nelson and Forsyth
Streets, the clock was in a beer saloon on the corner of Mitchell Street.
It said 9 minutes after 10. I don’t know the name of the woman who was
with Mr. Frank on Thanksgiving day. I know the man’s name was Mr.
Dalton. When I saw Mr. Frank coming towards the factory Saturday
morning he had on his raincoat and his usual suit of clothes and an um-
brella. Up to Christmas I used to run the elevator, then they put me on
the fourth floor to clean up. I cleaned up twice a week on the first floor

under Mr. Holloway’s directions. The lady I saw in Mr. Frank’s office
Thanksgiving day was a tall built lady, heavy weight, she was nice look-
ing, and she had on a blue looking dress with white dots in it and a gray-
ish looking coat with kind of tails to it. The coat was open like that and
she had on white slippers and stockings. On Thanksgiving day Mr.
Frank told me to come to his office. I have never seen any cot or bed
down in the basement. I refused to write for the police the first time. I
told them I couldn’t write.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am 27 years old. The last job I had was working for Dr. Palmer. I
worked for him a year and a half. I worked before that for Orr Station-
ery Company for three or four months. Before that I worked for S. S.
Gordon. Before that I worked for Adams Woodward and Dr. Honey-
well. Got my first job eleven years ago with Mr. S. M. Truitt. Next job
was with W. S. Coates. I can’t spell his name. I can’t read and write
good. I can’t read the newspapers good. No, sir; I don’t read the news-
paper. I never do, I have tried, I found I couldn’t and I quit. I can’t
read a paper right through. I can’t go right straight down through the
page, and that’s the reason I don’t read newspapers, I can’t get any sense
out of them. There is some little letters like” dis” and” dat” that I can
read. The other things I don’t understand. No, I can’t spell “dis” and
“dat.” Yes, I can spell “school,” and I can’t spell “collar,” I can spell
“shirts.” I can spell “shoes,” and “hat.” I spell “cat” with a “k.” I
can spell “dog,” and most simple little words like that. I don’t know
about spelling “mother.” I can spell “papa.” I spell it p-a-p-a. I can’t
spell “‘father ” or “‘jury” or “judge” or “stockings.” I never did go to
school further than the first grade. I went to school about a year. I can
spell” day,” but not” daylight,” I can spell” beer” but not” whiskey.”
I couldn’t read the name “whiskey.” No, I can’t read any letter on that
picture there (Exhibit A, State). I can’t figure except with my fingers.
I know the figures as far as eight, as far as twelve. I knows more about
counting than I do about figuring. I don’t know what year it was I went
to school. I worked for Truitt about two years, for Mr. Coates five years,
for Mr. Woodward and Mr. Honeywell about a year and a pressing club
about two years, Orr Stationery Company three or four months, Dr. Pal-
mer about a year and a half, and then I went to work for the pencil fac-
tory. Mr. Herbert Schiff employed me at the pencil factory. Sometimes
Mr. Schiff paid me off, sometimes Mr. Gantt, sometimes Mr. Frank. I
don’t remember when I saw Mr. Frank pay me off or how many times. I
drawed my money very seldom. I would always have somebody else
draw it for me. I told Mr. Holloway to let Gordon Bailey draw my money
mostly. He’s the one they call “Snowball.” The reason why I didn’t
draw it myself I would be owing some of the boys around the factory and
I didn’t have it to pay, and I would leave the factory about half past
eleven so that I didn’t have to pay it, and then I would have Snowball

draw my money for me mostly. I would see him afterwards and he would
give me the money. Sometimes I would go down through the basement
out the back way to keep away from them. The reason I let them draw
my money I owed some of them, and some of them owed me and I wanted
them to pay me first before I paid them. I didn’t want to get my money
on the inside because I didn’t want them to see such a little I was draw-
ing to what they were drawing. I wasn’t drawing but $6.05. Snowball
was drawing $6.05. As to who it was I didn’t want to see what I was
drawing, there was one named Walter Pride; he’s been there five years.
He said he drew $12.00 a week. Then there was Joe Pride, he told me he
drew $8.40 a week. They were down in the basement and asked me how
much I was drawing. I told them it wasn’t none of their business. Then
there was a fellow named Fred. I don’t know how much he drew. The
next one was the fireman. I don’t know how much he drew. There were
two or three others, but I didn’t have no talk with them. I was just hid-
ing what I drew from Walter Pride. As to whether I couldn’t draw my
money after Walter drew his without his knowing it, well he would al-
ways be down there waiting for me. As to whether I couldn’t get my
money without his being behind me and seeing what I got, he could see if
I tore open the envelope. I had to open it to pay them with. That’s the
reason I didn’t go and draw my money. I know I could have put it in my
pocket, but I couldn’t tear it open unless I took it out. Yes, the reason I
didn’t draw my money was because I didn’t want to pay them. That’s
the reason I let Snowball draw my money. They could have slipped up
behind me and looked. As to whether I couldn’t walk off and keep them
from seeing it, if I didn’t tear it open, then they would keep up with me
until I did. He would follow me around. No, I wasn’t trying to keep out
of paying them. As to what I was trying to do, if they paid me then I
would pay them. The way I liked to settle with them, I liked to take
them to the beer saloon and buy twice as much as they get. If I was there
when they come in on me, I would say, “I owe you, let’s drink it up.”
Yes, I would get out of it if I could, but if they saw me walk up and pay
them that way. I paid Walter Pride sometimes that way and sometimes
the other way. I would say, “I owe you fifteen cents, I buy three beers,
and you owe me fifteen cents, and that be three beers.” I say if I would
be in the beer saloon when they come in there, I would do that, but if I
could get out before they saw me, I would be gone. I never did know
what time the watchman come there on Saturday, or any Saturday. I
never have seen the night watchman in the factory. I have seen young
Mr. Kendrick come and get his money. He always comes somewhere
about two o’clock to get his money. I-have seen him lots of times Satur-
day and get his money. He always got it from Mr. Frank at two o’clock.
No, I didn’t know Newt Lee. I heard them say there was a negro night
watchman, but I never did know that he was a negro. I knew they paid
employees off at twelve o’clock. I don’t know what time the night watch-
man would come there to work. Mr. Holloway stays until 2:30. I couldn’t
tell the first time I ever watched for Mr. Frank. Sometimes during the

last summer, somewhere just about in July. As to what he said to get
me to watch for him that was on a Saturday, I would be there sweeping
and Mr. Frank come out and called me in his office. I always worked un-
til half past four in the evening. I would leave about half past twelve,
ring out and come back about half past one or two. Sometimes I would
ring in when I came back and sometimes I wouldn’t. I ringed in every
morning when I came. I never did ring in much. I would do it after
they got after me about it. It was my habit not to do it. As to how they
would know how much to pay me if I didn’t ring in, I knew they paid me
$1.10 a day, all the time. No, they didn’t pay me by the clock punches,
they paid me by the day, they paid me llc. an hour. Sometimes I would
punch the clock when I got there; that was my duty. Sometimes I was
paid when I didn’t work, I don’t know how that happened, but Mr. Frank
would come and tell me I didn’t take out that money for the time you lost
last week. I don’t know on what date he ever did that on. Yes, I always
got my money in envelopes. As to how they would know how much to
put in the envelope, when I didn’t punch, they would come and ask if
I was here every time I didn’t ring in, and they would ask Mr. Holloway
if I was here. .If the clock didn’t show any punch, they would ask me if I
was here at that hour. No they wouldn’t ask how many hours I was here,
they would just ask if I was here a certain hour and then they would pay
me for the full day, whether I punched the clock or not, just so I punched
it in the morning. The lady that was with Mr. Frank the time I watched
for him some time last July was Miss Daisy Hopkins. It would always
be somewhere between 3 and 3:30. I was sweeping on the second floor.
Mr. Frank called me in his office. There was a lady in there with him.
That was Miss Daisy Hopkins. She was present when he talked to me.
He said “You go down there and see nobody don’t come up and you will
have a chance to make some money. The other lady had gone out to get
that young man, Mr. Dalton. I don’t know how long she had been gone.
She came back after a wlhile with Mr. Dalton. They came upstairs to Mr.
Frank’s office, stayed there ten or fifteen minutes. They came back down,
they didn’t go out and she says, “All right, James.” About an hour af-
ter that Mr. Frank came down. This lady and man after she said “All
right, James” went down through the trap door into the basement.
There’s a place on the first floor that leads into another department and
there’s a trap door in there and a stairway that leads down in the base-
ment, and they pull out that trap door and go down in the basement. I
opened the trap door for them. The reason I opened the trap door be-
cause she said she was ready, I knew where she was going because Mr.
Frank told me to watch, he told me where they were going. I don’t know
how long they stayed down there. I don’t know when they came back. I
watched the door all the time. Mr. Dalton gave me a quarter and went
out laughing and the lady went up the steps. Then the ladies came down
and left, and then Mr. Frank came down after they left. That was about
half past four. He gave me a quarter and I left and then he left. The
next Saturday I watched was right near the same thing. It was about

the last of July or the first of August. The next Saturday I watched for
him about twelve o’clock he said “You know what you done for me last
Saturday, I want to put you wise for this Saturday.” I said, “All right,
what time ?” He said, “Oh, about half past.” After Mr. Holloway left,
Miss Daisy Hopkins came on in into the office, Mr. Frank came out of the
office, popped his fingers, bowed his head and went back into the office.
I was standing there by the clock. Yes, he popped his fingers and bowed
to me, and then I went down and stood by the door. He stayed there
that time about half an hour and then the girl went out. He gave me half
a dollar this time. The next time I watched for him and Mr. Dalton too,
somewhere along in the winter time, before Thanksgiving Day, some-
where about the last part of August. Yes, that’s somewhere near the
winter. This time he spoke to me on the fourth floor in the morning.
Gordon Bailey was standing there when he spoke to me. He said, “I
want to put you wise again for to-day.” The lady that came in that day
was one who worked on the fourth floor; it was not Miss Daisy Hopkins.
A nice looking lady, kind of slim. She had hair like Mr. Hooper’s. She
had a green suit of clothes on. When Miss Daisy Hopkins came she had
on a black skirt and white waist the first time. I don’t know the name of
that lady that works on the fourth floor. Yes, I have seen her lots of
times at the factory, but I don’t know her name. She went right to Mr.
Frank’s office, then I went and watched. She stayed about half an hour
and come out. Mr. Frank went out of the factory and then came back. I
stayed there and waited for him. He said, “I didn’t take out that
money.” I said, “Yes, I seed’you didn’t. He said “That’s all right, old
boy, I don’t want you to say anything to Mr. Herbert or Mr. Darley about
what’s going on around here.” Next time I watched for him was Thanks-
giving Day. I met Mr. Frank that morning about eight o’clock. He said
“A lady will be in here in a little while, me and her are going to chat, I
don’t want you to do no work, I just want you to watch.” In about half
an hour the lady came. I didn’t know that lady, she didn’t work at the
factory. I think I saw her in the factory two or three nights before
Thanksgiving Day in Mr. Frank’s office. She was a nice looking lady. I
think she had on black clothes. She was very tall, heavy built lady. Af-
ter she came in that Thanksgiving Day morning, I closed the door after
he stamped for me to close it. She went upstairs towards Mr. Frank’s
office. Mr. Frank came out there and stamped, and I closed the door.
Mr. Frank said, “I’ll stamp after this lady comes and you go and close
the door and turn the night latch.” That’s the first time he told me about
the night lock. And he says, “If everything is all right you kick against
the door,” and I kicked against the door. After an hour and a half Mr.
Frank came down and unlocked the doors and says, “Everything is all
right.” He then went and looked up the street and told the lady to come
on downstairs. After she came down, she said to Mr. Frank, “Is that
the nigger ‘?” and Mr. Frank said, “Yes,” and she said, “Well, does he
talk much ?” and he says, “No, he is the best nigger I have ever seen.”
Mr. Frank called me in the office and gave me $1.25. The lady had on a

blue skirt with white dots in it and white slippers and white stockings
and had a gray tailor-made coat, with pieces of velvet on the edges of it.
The velvet was black and the cloth of the coat was gray. She had on a
black hat with big black feathers. I left a little before 12 o’clock. I
didn’t see anybody else there that day at the office. The next time I
watched was way after Christmas, on a Saturday about the middle of
January-somewhere about the first or middle. It was right after New
Year, one or two, or three or four days after. It was on a Saturday. He
said a young man and two ladies would be coming. That was that Sat-
urday morning at half past seven. I was standing by the side of Gordon
Bailey when he come and told me, and he said, I could make a piece of
money off that man. Yes, Snowball could hear what he said. The man
and ladies came about half past two or three o’clock. They stayed there
about two hours. I didn’t know either one of the ladies. I can’t describe
what either one of them had on. The man was tall, slim built, a heavy.
man. I have seen him at the factory talking to Holloway, he didn’t work
there. I have seen him often talking to Holloway, through the week. You
asked me what I did the second Saturday after I watched for him, well, I
don’t remember. As to what I did the Saturday I watched for him the
second time, I disremember what I did. The Saturday after that, I think
about the first of August, I did some more watching for him. I don’t re-
member what I did the Saturday before Thanksgiving Day. I don’t re-
member what I did the Saturday after Thanksgiving Day. I don’t re-
member what I did the next Saturday. I don’t know, sir, what I did the
next Saturday. The next Saturday I did some watching for him. I
watched for him somewhere about the last of November after Thanks-
giving Day. No, I don’t remember any of those dates. Couldn’t tell you
to save my life what time I left home the first time I watched for him. I
couldn’t tell you what time I got to the factory the second time I watched
for him, nor what time I left home. I don’t know whether I drew my
money on the first Saturday I watched for him. I disremember whether
anybody else drew my money for me the second Saturday I watched for
him. I don’t know how much I drew. I couldn’t tell you whether I drew
my money Thanksgiving Day or not. I don’t know how much I drew. I
don’t remember what time I got down or what time I left. I don’t know
when I got to the factory the day before Thanksgiving, or how long I
worked there. I don’t remember how many hours I worked the first Sat-
urday I watched for him or the second, or the third, or Thanksgiving
Day. No, I don’t know how much I drew on those days. The first time I
was in prison was in September. The next was sometime before Christ-
mas, I can’t remember the date. I was there thirty days. It was some-
where along in October. A year before that I was in prison too, about
thirty days. I have been in prison three times since I have been with the
pencil company. I have been in prison about three times within the last
three or four years. I have been in prison seven or eight times within the
last four or five years. I can’t give you any of the dates, nor how long I
stayed there any of the times that I was there. I don’t know what month

or what day it was, nor how long I stayed there. I knew the factory was
not going to be run on April 26th. Yes, Snowball and I drank beer to-
gether sometimes in the building. Yes, we used to go down in the base-
ment and drink together, but he aint the only man. I never was drunk at
the factory. Snowball wasn’t there the first Saturday I watched for Mr.
Frank. I think he laid off. I don’t know whether he was there the sec-
ond or third Saturdays, I didn’t see him Thanksgiving morning, but I
saw him the day before Thanksgiving. That was the time that Mr. Frank
told me to watch for him. He talked to me before Snowball. I don’t
know whether Snowball was there in January when I watched. Snow-
ball was there in January in the box room when Mr. Frank told me to
watch for him. I don’t know whether Mr. Frank knew he was there or
not. There were eight niggers in all working in the factory. Snowball,
the fireman and me did just plain manual labor, the rest of the negroes
had better jobs. Snowball, the fireman and I were the last negroes to get
jobs there. We were the new darkies; the others had been working there
before we went there. Mr. Frank used to laugh and jolly with me. I
couldn’t tell you the first time he did this. Mr. Darley has seen him jol-
lying me. They would jolly me together. They would play and go on
around there with me. It has been so long ago I can’t tell you any of the
jokes. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Holloway has seen him joking with me. He
would say, “Come on I am going to make a graveyard down there in the
basement if you don’t hurry and bring that elevator back up here.” Mr.
Holloway heard him say that. Mr. Schiff has seen him playing with me.
He would goose me and punch me and tell me I was a good negro. I don’t
remember anything else he said. Yes, Mr. Darley would goose me and
kick me a little bit, just playing with me. Mr. Schiff would crack jokes
with me. I don’t remember the time. The time Mr. Frank came in the
elevator and told me about watching for him, he didn’t know Snowball
was in there. Snowball was standing right there by me. Mr. Frank could
have seen him and he could have heard anything that was said. He saw
Snowball standing there, I have been at the factory over two years. I
don’t remember the day or month I went there. It was some time in 1910.
I don’t remember whether it was summer or winter. Miss Daisy Hop-
kins worked on the fourth floor in 1912. I don’t know when she quit. I
saw her working from June, 1912, up until about Christmas. Yes, I
worked on the same floor with her, I don’t know whether she worked
there in 1913. Miss Daisy was a low lady, kind of heavy, and she was
pretty, low, chunky kind of heavy weight. I don’t know what color hair
she had or eyes, or her complexion. She was light skinned. She looked
to be about twenty-three. I know she was there in June, because she gave
me a note to take down to Mr. Schiff. I remember that because the note
had June on it. Mr. Schiff said it had “June” on it when he read it. I
can’t read but he read that note and he read ‘June something,” it was
on the outside of the note. It was on the back of the note. “June” was
written on the back of that note. She wrote the note and folded it up
and he read “June” on the back of it and he laughed at it. The reason

I know she left the factory during Christmas because Mr. Dalton told
me she wasn’t coming back. He told me that one Saturday coming down
to the factory. I never have seen Mr. Dalton except at the factory. No,
he doesn’t work there. I saw him somewhere along in January. He came
out that time by himself. He and a lady had been down in the basement.
The last time I saw him the detectives brought him down at the station
house and asked if I had ever seen him in there. I saw Mr. Holloway at
the factory the first Saturday I watched for Mr. Frank. The next Satur-
day I watched, he was sick and wasn’t there. He was sick two Saturdays
in June. I disremember whether I saw Mr. Schiff and Mr. Darley. I re-
member seeing Mr. Darley at the factory on Thanksgiving Day. I don’t
remember what time he left. I couldn’t tell you anybody who came to
the factory the first Saturday I watched. The second time I think there
were some young ladies working up on the fourth floor. I don’t know
about the third time. I don’t know whether anybody was working there
Thanksgiving or not. I didn’t see Mr. Schiff at all. I will swear that he
was not in the office with Mr. Frank. I don’t know whether any ladies
were working there the next time or not. I have been back in the metal
department, but I never have been on the right hand side where the” ma-
chines are. I have swept on the second floor, but not in the metal depart-
ment. I don’t know where those vats are back there. I don’t know what
you are talking about. I don’t know anything about the plating room. I
never have been in Mr. Quinn’s office. I have put disinfect-ants in the
ladies’ and gentlemen’s closets back there. I wouldn’t go inside. I would
only go to the door. I stood outside of the door and sprinkled it in a little
way. Outside of that, and going to Mr. Quinn’s office I have never been
on the left hand side of the factory. I have been there where they wash
the lead at, and I have stuck bills in Mr. Quinn’s office. Yes, I have been
back in there where that dark place is. I don’t know how many times I
have stacked some boxes back there. I have been back there three times
altogether. Sometime before Christmas. Yes, sir, you can see from the
top of the stairway back in there. I have been back there three times
altogether. Sometime before Christmas. Yes, sir; you can see from the
top of the stairway to Mr. Frank’s inside office. A man sitting at Mr.
Frank’s desk can see people coming up the stairway if he is watching for
them. If the safe door is open I don’t hardly think he can see them. If
it is shut he can. I am certain of that. I thought you were talking about
the third floor. He couldn’t see people coming up from the first floor. He
can see them after they get along by the clock. I left the factory 5:30
Friday afternoon, before the factory stopped. I think I punched when I
went out. One of them was ten minutes fast. That was the one on the
right, I left there without drawing my money because I knew I wasn’t
going to draw but $2.75 and I owed the watchman a dollar and I knowed
I wouldn’t have enough for me and to pay him and I told Mr. Holloway
to let Snowball draw it for me. Snowball drew it for me and met me at
the shoe shop at the corner of Alabama and Forsyth Street. He gave me
$3.75. I wasn’t supposed to draw but $2.75, and Mr. Frank taken that

dollar for the watchman and stuck an extra dollar in my envelope and
that made $3.75. I don’t remember how many beers I drank Friday.
Yes, I told Mr. Scott I got up at 9 o’clock that morning. That wasn’t
true. I ate breakfast about seven. Yes, I told Mr. Black I ate at 9:30.
That wasn’t true. I left my house between 7″and 7:30. I told Mr. Scott
I left somewhere between 10 and 10:30. No, that wasn’t true. I got to
Peters Street about 25 minutes to 8. I don’t know how long I stayed
there. Some things in my affidavit that I made that are true. Yes, there
are some things in my last affidavit that are true. I was arrested on the
first of May. I sent for Mr. Black to come down when I made my first
statement on May 18th. Yes, I denied I had been to the factory in that
statement. I made that statement in the detectives’ office. Mr. Black
and Mr. Scott were present. They didn’t question two or three hours. I
did some writing before then, before that statement was made. Yes, I
know I did some writing before May 18th. I did some writing in Chief’s
office that Sunday. I told Black I bought whiskey on Peters Street at
about 10:30. I told them I paid forty cents for ft. I don’t remember tell-
ing them that I bought the whiskey at 11 o’clock. Yes, I told them I went
into the Butt-In Saloon after I went to Earley’s for the whiskey. Some
of it I told them was the truth and some of it wasn’t. They asked me if I
was lying and I held my head down. I held back some of the truth, and
when they asked me if that was the truth I hung my head down. I didn’t
want to give the man away, but I wanted to tell some and let him see what
I was going to do and see if he wasn’t going to stick to his promise as he
had said. I told them I went into Butt-In Saloon and saw some negroes
at tables shooting dice and I won ninety cents and bought a glass of beer.
I told them that I went to three beer saloons. I told them after I went
home at 2:30, I went to Joe Carr’s saloon and got 15c. worth of beer. I
don’t remember telling them that I went there between 3:30 and four
o’clock. The detectives talked to me nearly every day after I made my
first statement. Sometimes hours at a time. No, they didn’t cuss me.
Yes. I sent for Black on May 24th. When the statement came out in the
papers that’s the time I sent for him. As to how I knew it came out in
the papers, I heard the boys across the street hollering extra papers. Mr.
Black came down after I sent for him and I told him it’s awful hot in
here, and I told him I was going to tell him something, but I wasn’t going
to tell him all of it now. I told him that I would tell him part and hold
part back. Scott and Black were both there. Yes, I told Mr. Black on
May 24th, the time I made the second statement, that I helped tote the
little girl. I sure remember that. I think I told them about Mr. Frank
getting me to watch for him, that he told me he struck a girl and for me
to go back and get her. I didn’t give Mr. Frank clear away that time. I
kept some things back. I don’t remember now whether I told them at
that time or not. I don’t know whether I told them about going down
the basement or not. The first time I told them I wrote the notes on Fri-
day. They didn’t tell me my story wouldn’t fit. I don’t remember them
telling me anything about changing my statement. I told them that was

all I had to say. They never told me they wanted me to tell anything
else. They didn’t say anything to me that it didn’t sound right. Mr.
Black talked to me right smart and Mr. Lanford talked to me a little. No,
they never talked to me a whole day. As to why I changed my statement
from Friday to Saturday, I put it on Saturday, because I was at the fac-
tory on Saturday. As to why I didn’t put myself there on Saturday, the
blame would be put on me. I didn’t want them to know that I had writ-
ten any notes for Mr. Frank. Yes, in that statement I told the officers I
was going to tell the whole truth. I told them that I got up at nine
o’clock, because there was nothing doing at the factory that day at the
time. I said I was there at 9 o’clock, because he had done told me where
to meet him at. Yes, I told them that I was going to tell the whole truth.
Yes, the reason I told them I left home at 9 or 9:30, because there was
not anything doing at the factory at that time. I told them it was about
9 o’clock when I looked at the clock, because I don’t know what time it
was when I looked at the clock, and I told them I had some steak and
some sausage for breakfast and a piece of liver and I drank some tea and
bread. Well, there was some sausage, but I don’t know whether I ate it
or not. Yes, I had steak, liver and sausage for breakfast. I know I ate
the steak and a piece of liver, and drank a cup of tea and ate some bread.
I got up that morning at six o’clock. Yes, I told the officers I got up at 9
or 9:30. I don’t remember anything else I told them. Yes, I told them
that I went straight to Peters Street and went in the first beer saloon
there, and drank two beers and gave a fellow a beer, that had a whip
around his neck. I told them three saloons and I called two names. I
don’t know whether I told them about this whiskey or not. I told them
I bought it between 10 and 10:30. No, that is not true. I told them that
on account of my saying I didn’t leave home until about 9 or 9:30. I
bought it about a quarter to eight. The reason I told these lies about the
time was because I didn’t want to put myself at the factory twice, be-
cause there wasn’t anything doing at the factory that morning. That is
the only reason I told that story. I don’t know when the first time was I
told them I got there at 8 o’clock instead of 10 or half past, it was after I
got out of jail up there. I guess I made most of these changes after I got
out of jail. I don’t know who the detective was I told about my not leav-
ing home at 9 o’clock. Four of them were talking to me, all at the same
time. I think it was Starnes and Campbell that I told that to, about
changing the time. I don’t remember whether I told them then that I
was going to tell the whole truth. I told them that after I got out of jail,
after I got back to headquarters. If you tell a story you know you’ve got
to change it. A lie won’t work, and you know you’ve got to tell the whole
truth. Yes, I knew it was bound to come when I told it the first time. I
didn’t tell the whole truth then, because I didn’t want to give the whole
thing away then. In the statement where I told about my moving the lit-
tle girl for Mr. Frank, the reason why I didn’t correct it then about the
time I bought the liquor, I don’t know whether I did it then or not, but I
did tell them. I told them I drank four or five beers that morning. I told

them at the first saloon I bought two beers. I didn’t tell them I bought
any wine at that time. I told them I had some wine put in my beer. What
they call wine. It wasn’t any wine though. I don’t know whether I told
them that in the statement I made about moving the little girl or not.
The wine was put in my beer at Mr. Earl’s beer saloon on Saturday morn-
ing. I told that to Mr. Black and Mr. Scott, I don’t remember when. As
to my not testifying about that yesterday, you didn’t ask me that. I re-
member telling you that yesterday. I remember saying I didn’t buy any
wine. No, I didn’t say anything about putting beer in wine yesterday,
but I remember I said something about putting wine in beer. I know I
told you that yesterday. I don’t remember telling them I started straight
from Peters Street to Capital City Laundry. I told them I started for the
laundry after leaving Mr. Frank at the factory. If they have got it down
there, I must have said so. I don’t remember saying it. I told them I
met Mr. Frank at the corner of Nelson and Forsyth Street before I went
to the factory. Yes, I told them I went from Peters Street and met him
at the corner of Nelson and Forsyth before I went to the factory. As to
why I told them that story, because I did meet him there. No, I didn’t go
straight from Peters Street to meet him at the corner of Nelson and For-
syth as I told them. I went straight from Peters Street to the pencil fac-
tory. I don’t remember when the first time I told the truth about it. I
told it either to Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Black or Mr. Scott. I
told it after I got out of jail, I remember telling the officers when he said
“Ah, ha,” when I met him at the corner. I don’t remember telling the
officers that he asked me where I was going and I told him I was going to
the Capital City Laundry to see my mother. I don’t remember saying
that to the officers. If I did say that it was not the truth. As to why I
lied about that, because I did tell Mr. Frank down there when I left the
factory that I was going to see my mother. I told the officers he stayed
at Montag’s about 20 minutes. I did tell you yesterday that I didn’t have
any idea how long he stayed there, because I haven’t any idea now. As to
why I didn’t say yesterday that it was 20 minutes, because you didn’t ask
me. I didn’t tell Mr. Dorsey how long it was, because he didn’t ask me
what I told detectives about it, but I told detectives that. I told them that
story because I didn’t have any idea how long he stayed there. I don’t
know how long Mr. Frank stayed there. I told the officers 20 minutes as
that was the best I could do about it, so I just told him 20 minutes. I
told the detectives about wanting me to watch for him when I got back to
the factory. I don’t know why I didn’t tell them that at the time I told
them about moving the body. I don’t remember who I told it to or when,
but I told them. I did tell them about Mr. Frank stamping his foot. I
don’t know whether I told them at the time I told about helping move the
body. I told it to Mr. Scott, Mr. Black, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Starnes and
Mr. Dorsey. Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell wasn’t in there sometimes
when I told it. No, I didn’t tell it to Mr. Scott and Mr. Black. They
dropped the case and Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell taken it up. They
came down and was talking to me for a month or more in my cell. Yes, I

told Mr. Black about Frank stomping his foot and Mr. Scott. I told them
all about it. Yes, I told the detectives that the first party I saw going up
the factory after I got back from Montag’s was Miss Mattie Smith. That
was a mistake. I didn’t see Mr. Darley go up after I got back from Mon-
tag’s. No, I didn’t say yesterday that I saw him go up after I got back
from Montag’s. I don’t know whether Mr. Darley saw me or not. I was
sitting right there at the box. He could have seen me if he had looked, so
could Miss Mattie Smith. The rest of them could have seen me if they
had looked. Yes, I told the officers the first time I saw them go up was
after I got back from Montag’s. That was not so. I was just mistaken
about it. Don’t know when I corrected the mistake or to whom. Yes, I
stated it to Mr. Dorsey. It was after I came from jail. I have corrected
it to Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell too. It was about 11:30 when Mr.
Darley left the factory, right after we got back from Montag’s. It may
have been about 11 o’clock. Miss Mattie Smith left the factory some-
where about 9:30. It was after we got back from Montag’s that I saw Mr.
Darley leave. Mr. Holloway and the peg-legged negro went upstairs and
came down before Mr. Darley left the factory. They could have seen me
sitting on the box, as they came out the factory. Mr. Holloway left about
10 or 15 minutes after Mr. Darley left. It may have been four or five min-
utes. After Mr. Holloway left, I told them Mr. Quinn came in. I may
have told them that a lady dressed in green was the next one. That
wasn’t true. A lady in green did go up before Mr. Darley came down.
She came down before Holloway and Darley left. If I told the officers
that she went up after they left, I made a mistake. Mr. Quinn was the
next man that went up after Mr. Holloway came down. Yes, I said that
yesterday. Yes, I said yesterday Mr. Quinn was the last man I saw come
down. No, I didn’t say yesterday Miss Monteen Stover came down after
Mr. Quinn came down. I might have told the officers that I saw Mr. Hol-
loway return upstairs, turn to the right toward Hunter Street and go in
the factory. If I did, I made a mistake. I don’t remember all the mis-
takes I made. No, I have never told about a lady going up there after
them six or seven minutes, I was mistaken. I don’t know whether I have
ever corrected that mistake or not. She went upstairs and Mr. Quinn
went up and came down before she did. If I told the officers she stayed
there 7 or 8 minutes and came right down, I made a mistake. I don’t
think I corrected that mistake at all. I don’t know how long it was after
she came down before any body else went up and down. If I told the offi-
cers it was 10 or 15 minutes that was a mistake. I don’t think I corrected
that mistake at all. I haven’t got any idea at all how long before the lady
in green came down that anybody else went up. Yes, I told Mr. Scott and
Mr. Black that the only people who went up at all were Miss Mattie
Smith, Darley, Holloway and the woman in green, and nobody went up
and down until Mr. Frank whistled. No, that wasn’t true. The reason
why I told that story was because I didn’t want them to know that these
other people passed by me, for they might accuse me. The reason why I
didn’t tell them was because I didn’t want people to think that I was the

one that done the murder. I told them that I saw those four men go up
because I didn’t think they saw me sitting there, and I didn’t tell of see-
ing the other people for fear they would report on me. The reason why I
told the police about those four going up there, because that is all I could
remember that went up and down. I don’t know when my memory got
fresher about other people going up and down. I think it was after I got
out of jail. I think I corrected that with Mr. Starnes, Mr. Campbell and
Mr. Dorsey, at police headquarters. After I corrected with the detectives
down at headquarters, they took me to Mr. Dorsey’s office. I have been
in Mr. Dorsey’s office three times. Mr. Dorsey was down at headquarters
with me I think about four times. As to whether it took Mr. Dorsey about
seven times to get my testimony straight, it didn’t take him that long to
get it straight, it took that long for me. As to why I didn’t tell it all, I
didn’t want to tell it all. I was intending to hold back some. I didn’t want
to tell it all right at one time. I just told a little and kept back a little.
Yes, and Mr. Dorsey went down seven times while I was telling some and
holding back some. They didn’t ask me to take back any stories. No, it
didn’t take Mr. Dorsey seven times to tell the story. Yes, I said I added
to it every time he went down. But he wouldn’t came back and try to do
anything with it. I didn’t tell the officers that I went to a moving pic-
ture show after I left the factory. I said I looked at the pictures from the
outside. I told them I went on Peters Street and looked at the pictures
from the outside. I stayed there about ten or fifteen minutes. I drank
two glasses of beer. I don’t know whether it was in the first, second or
third statement that I told about watching for Mr. Frank. Two of the
detectives were there. Yes, I locked the front door that Saturday of the
murder. I don’t know what time. It was somewhere after dinner. I
can’t give you any estimate. It was later than 12 o’clock. It wasn’t one
o’clock, because it was four minutes to one after I went upstairs and came
downstairs and unlocked the door. Yes, I heard the stamping before I
locked the door, and I heard the scream before I heard the stamping. Af-
ter he stamped for me I went and locked the door. I couldn’t tell to save
my life how long the door stayed locked. I was upstairs between the time
I locked the door and the time I went down and unlocked it. I unlocked
the door before I went upstairs. I locked the door when he stamped and
I unlocked it when he whistled. As soon as he whistled I unlocked the
door and went upstairs. Mr. Frank sent me back in the metal depart-
ment. He wouldn’t go back there with me. When he whistled that was
the signal for me to unlock the door and the stamping was for me to un-
lock the door. He showed me how to lock the door that day. He showed
me how to lock the door on Thanksgiving Day too. I don’t know how he
came to show it to me again. I guess he thought I forgot it. When I went
down to leave the door were unlocked, both doors were unlocked. The
only thing I remember Mr. Frank telling me was not to let Mr. Darley
see me around the door, that a young lady would be up there after awhile
to chat, and he wanted me to watch for him. No, he didn’t tell me what
he wanted me to meet him at Nelson and Forsyth Street for. Yes, I could

have come back to the factory just as well as going to meet him at Nelson
and Forsyth Street if he had told me that. I don’t know why he told me
to meet him at Nelson and Forsyth. I don’t remember telling the officers
that I met him accidentally at Nelson and Forsyth Street. Mr. Frank
sayed at Montag’s about an hour. Mr. Frank went to Montag’s between
10 and 10:30 and stayed about an hour. I guess it was about a half an
hour. Mr. Frank didn’t say a thing about why he wanted me at the cor-
ner of Nelson and Forsyth Street. Before we went to Montag’s he said
he didn’t want me to say anything to Mr. Darley that there was going to
be a young lady there after a while, and he told me that again after we
came back from Montag’s. Mr. Frank gave me the signal about stamp-
ing and whistling on Thanksgiving Day and he repeated it again that
day. I told yesterday how he done it, like I am telling now. I think I am
telling the truth now. We had been hack from Montag’s about five min-
utes when the lady in the green dress went up. She stayed up there a
good little while, ten or fifteen minutes. I didn’t tell the officers the peg-
legged negro went up first. I didn’t tell them in the first statement. I
may have told them in the next statement. The peg-legged negro didn’t
stay up stairs no time. Came back down with Mr. Holloway. Mr. Dar-
ley came down five or ten minutes after Mr. Holloway came down. Yes,
that was after he came back from Montag’s. I have no idea what time it
was. After Holloway came down, the lady with the green dress came
down. She went on out and Mr. Quinn came in. He went up and came
down before Monteen Stover came in and before Mary Phagan came in.
Yes, I am certain of that. No one else came in after Mr. Quinn except
Mary Phagan. Mr. Quinn, Monteen Stover and Mary Phagan went in
almost the same time. They went and came out almost together. Quinn
first, Mary Phagan next and Monteen Stover next. Mr. Quinn had al-
ready come out of the factory when Mary Phagan went up. I didn’t see
Mrs. Barrett, or Miss Corinthia Hall or Miss Hattie Hall or Alonzo Mann,
or Emma Clarke. I didn’t see none of them. I never saw Mrs. White go
in there at all that day. I was sitting on the box all the time. I got up
twice to make water. I made water against the elevator door, right in
front of the elevator shaft. Miss Stover had done gone then, and Mr.
Quinn also. I went to sleep after Miss Monteen Stover came down. Don’t
know how long I was asleep, maybe ten or fifteen minutes. I heard the
scream before I went to sleep, before Monteen Stover ever went in there.
Mr. Quinn had already gone. I told the officers I didn’t see Mary Phagan
go up at all. I didn’t tell them I heard any scream. I don’t know when
I first told that story. I told Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell. That was
after I got out of jail. I said I heard the scream before I went to sleep,
which I did. Monteen Stover came up and went down before I went to
sleep. I told Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell about somebody running
back on tiptoes. I don’t know when I told them. He woke me up stamp-
inz, then I locked the door, and went to the box and kicked on the side of
the elevator door. It was about ten or fifteen minutes after he stamped
‘hat I heard him whistle. When he whistled I unlocked the door. I don’t

know when I first told about Mr. Frank standing at the top of the stairs,
trembling and nervous. I told Mr. Dorsey, Mr. Starnes and Campbell. I
don’t know why I didn’t tell it the day I told them I was going to tell the
whole truth. I didn’t mean to keep back anything then. That day I told
them everything I remembered. When I got to the top of the stairs, Mr.
Frank had that cord in his hands. I don’t remember when I first told
about that. U I didn’t tell it that day when I said I was telling the whole
truth, I just didn’t remember it. When I told Black and Scott that I was
telling the whole truth I didn’t say anything about Mr. Frank having hit
the little girl. I thought I had told them that. I have told that to some
of the officers. I remember now that I told them that. He told me to get
her out of there some way or other. He didn’t say she was dead. I didn’t
l”now she was dead. I went back there and found the cord around her
neck. When I looked at the clock it was four minutes to one. That was
after I went and seen the girl was dead, and he told me to bring her up
there. I was standing at the steps. I could see the clock from there.
Then I went back and got a piece of striped bed tick, something like your
shirt there, had whitish looking stripes on it. I taken the cloth and spread
it down and rolled the little girl in the cloth and tied it up. When I laid
her down in the cloth, I tied the cloth around her. I did my best. Her
feet were hanging out of the cloth, also her head. If I didn’t tell Black
and Scott anything about the hat and the slippers and the ribbon, they
must not have asked me. I know I took the things and pitched them in
front of the boiler. The elevator don’t hit hard when it hits the ground.
The wheels at the top don’t make any noise. The motor makes a little
noise, something like a June bug. The elevator hits the dirt at the bot-
tom, but it don’t make any noise. I left the factory about 1:30. The rea-
son why I didn’t tell Scott and Black before I wrote four notes instead of
two, they dian’t ask me how many I wrote. Another reason why is, be-
cause Mr. Frank taken that and folded it up like he wasn’t going to use
it. I wrote three notes on white and one on green paper. The green one
is the one he folded up like he wasn’t going to use it. I don’t know how
long it took me to write those notes. I took me somewhere about two
minutes and a half, I reckon. The reason I didn’t tell Scott and Black
about burning the body, because someone had done taken them off the
case. Mr. Scott told me. The first time I told that was to Mr. Starnes
and Mr. Campbell after I came back from jail. I don’t remember telling
the officers that Mr. Frank told me he was going to send those notes to
his folks up North. If they have got it down there I must have said it.
He told me he was going to write to his mother and tell her that I was a
good negro. The reason I didn’t take the parasol down with the shoes,
it was too far back for me to see it. I got my hair cut last week. My law-
yer sent the barber. They gave me a bath and bought me clean clothes.
My wife gave me my shirt. I didn’t read any newspapers on Monday
about this crime. It don’t do me no good because I can’t make any out.
I didn’t try to read any that day. I washed that shirt on Thursday, May
I.t, in the metal room about half past one or two. As to how that dung

came to be in the elevator shaft, when Mr. Frank had explained to me
where he wanted to meet me and just as I started out of the place that
negro drayman came in there with a sack of hay and I gave him a drink
of whiskey that I bought at Earley’s saloon on Peters Street that morn-
ing, and he suggested that I go down in the basement and do it, there’s a
light down there, and I went down the ladder and stopped right by the
side of the elevator, in front of the elevator, somewhere about the edges
of it. No, I didn’t see the two white men go up and talk to Mr. Frank in
his office that day. No, I didn’t see a man by the name of Mincey at the
corner of Carter and Electric Avenue that day. I didn’t tell him that I
killed a girl that day. I didn’t say I killed one to-day and I didn’t want
to kill another. I didn’t tell Harlee Branch that Mary Phagan was mur-
dered in the toilet room on the second floor, or that the body was stiff
when I got back there, or that it took at least thirty minutes to get the
body down stairs and write the notes. I don’t remember telling Miss
Carson on May 1st, that Mr. Frank was innocent. I didn’t have any con-
versation with Miss Mary Pirk on April 28th and she didn’t say that I
committed the crime and I didn’t shoot out of the room immediately af-
ter she said that I didn’t tell Miss Carson on Monday that I was drunk all
day Saturday. I didn’t see her at all on Monday. I didn’t tell Mr. Her-
bert Schiff on Monday that I was afraid to go on the street, that I would
give a million dollars if I was a white man. I said if I was a white man I
would go on out. I didn’t say nothing about no million dollars because I
don’t know what it takes to make a million. I didn’t ask Miss Small on
Monday what the extra had in it and I didn’t say Mr. Frank is just as in-
nocent as you are. I didn’t ask Miss Fuss on Wednesday for an extra, I
didn’t tell her that I thought Mr. Frank was as innocent as the angels in
heaven.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I never was in jail until April 26th. I have been down at police head-
quarters several times. First time I was arrested was for throwing
rocks. I was a small boy then. I was arrested another time for fighting
black boys, then I was arrested about drinking and disorderly, and the
last time I was arrested was about fighting again. I never have fought
with a white man or white woman. Police officers took me down to jail
and to door where Mr. Frank was. I never did see Mr. Frank in jail. The
last time I saw Mr. Frank was in the station house before I had talked.
He looked at me and smiled and bowed his head. While I was writing
the notes, Mr. Frank took the pencil out of my hand and told me to rub
out that “a” I had down there on the word “negro.” I saw Mary Pha-
gan’s pocketbook, or mesh bag, in Mr. Frank’s office after he got back
from the basement. It was lying on his desk. He taken it and put it in
the safe. When I went back to see about the girl, it wouldn’t have taken
more than about a minute to go down and lock and unlock the door. He
had time enough to do it. Mr. Scott talked to me about three hours and
a half one Thursday. Mr. Frank told me he would send me away from

here if they caught me. He would get me out on bond and send me away.
I never saw Mincey before seeing him at the station house in Mr. Lan-
ford’s office. I had orders from Mr. Frank to write down how many
boxes we needed and give it to him. I didn’t tell Mr. Black or Mr. Scott
about the mesh bag because they didn’t ask me. I disremember when I
first told about it. I think it was after I was in jail. I told Mr. Dorsey
about it after I came out of jail. Mr. Frank knew for a whole year that
I could write. I used to write for him the word “Luxury,” “George
Washington,” “Magnolia,” “Uncle Remus,” “Thomas Jefferson,”
that’s the name of pencils. I spell ” I Uncle Remus” ” O-n-e Rines. ” I
spell “Luxury” I ‘ “L-u-s-t-r-i-s.” I spell ” I Thomas Jefferson” ” T-o-m
Je-f-f- or J-e-i-s-s.” I spell “George Washington” “J-o-e W-i-s-h-
t-o-n.” After Mr. Frank found out what I meant he understood it. I
spell “ox” “o-x.” Yes I wrote him orders to take money out of my
wages. The pocketbook was a wire looking whitish looking pocketbook,
had a chain to it. You could take it and fold it up and hold it in one hand.
When I wrote the word “Luxury” and “Thomas Jefferson,” I didn’t
have anything at all to copy from. I was writing it down for Mr. Frank.

MRS. J. A. WHITE, recalled for the State.

I have seen this man before at police headquarters (indicating Con-
ley) about a month after the murder. At that time I did not identify him
as being the man I saw sitting on the box. The man sitting on the box
was about the same size as Jim Conley. I couldn’t state it was Jim Con-
ley. He was sitting in a dark place, and he looked black to me. He had
on dark clothes. I don’t know whether he was bareheaded or not. I told
Bass Rosser about this on May 7th. That was the first time I told of it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I told the detective about this as soon as I saw one. I never kept it
a secret from anybody. I spoke to Mr. Wade Campbell about seeing the
darkey. I didn’t tell him that I saw the negro as I went up into the fac-
tory about 12 o’clock. I didn’t tell him that, when I came down the steps
the last time, I didn’t see anybody.

C. W. MANGUM, sworn for the State.

I had a conversation with Mr. Frank at the jail about seeing Conley
and confronting him. Conley was on the fourth floor. Chief Beavers,
Chief Lanford and Scott came down to see Mr. Frank with Conley and
asked me if they could see him. I went to Frank and told him the men
were there with Conley and wanted to talk with him if he wanted to see
them. He said, “No, my attorney is not here and I have nobody to de-
fend me.” He said his lawyer was not there; that no one was there to
listen at what might be said.

N. V. DARLEY, recalled for cross-examination.

On the ground floor the door to the Clark Woodenware Company
was nailed up immediately after that company left there. We found it
broken open after the murder and we nailed it up again. It was two or
three days after the murder. Sitting at Mr. Frank’s desk, the most that
one can see is about half of clock No. 2, which is on the left of clock No.
1. If the safe door was open in the outer office, you have no view into
Mr. Frank’s office from the outside. You might tiptoe and look over the
door. A man of my height could just tiptoe and see over it. The pack-
ing room next to Mr. Frank’s office works from 11 to 17 ladies and men.
Passing by elevator shaft as you go in building on ground floor, you come
to a door to Clark Woodenware Company’s place, which was nailed up
immediately after that company left there. We found it broken open af-
ter the murder. I don’t know what day, it must have been two or three
days after, and we nailed it up again. (Witness identifies various por-
tions of factory from the factory model-Defendant’s Exhibit 4). There
is no lounge, sofa, cot or bed in the whole factory. I found two boxes
down in the basement in Clark Woodenware side of old dirty, rotten
stuff, too dirty and rotten for a human being to rest upon. It’s boggy in
there. They had on top of them some dirty, filthy, nasty crocus sacks.
There is no lounge, bed, sofa or anything of the sort in the metal room.
I have never seen a chair in there. I have never seen any blood under
the machine that Barrett claims he found hair on. I never saw any blood
on the place the negro claims the little girl’s body was lying. You can
get into the metal room either from the front or the back if the back door
is open. You can lock the back door from the inside. There is a cross
bar across the door. The rule was to keep it locked, but a great many
times I found it unlocked. It was very dark around the elevator on the
first floor on April 26th. It was a cloudy day and darker than usual be-
cause the front doors were closed. It’s too dark to stand on the outside
and see through the elevator. I left the factory with Mr. Frank on his
way to Montag Brothers. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never
saw Mr. Frank talk to him or speak to him or come into contact with him
in any way that day. I have never goosed or pinched Jim Conley or jol-
lied with him. I kicked him when I caught him loafing, and sometimes I
would take a piece of board to him and he would laugh every time I did
it. I have never seen Mr. Frank goose or pinch him or play with him or
jolly him. No, I never knew Daisy Hopkins. I have never seen Dalton
until this morning. From June, 1912, until January, 1913, I left the fac-
tory at twelve o’clock on Saturdays, and usually came back between five
and six. I did that most every Saturday during the two years that I
have been there. I may have missed sometimes, but not many. Only on
one occasion do I recall that Mr. Frank said he would not be there on
Saturday afternoon. I would visit the factory every Saturday after-
noon between five and six to find out how the financial was for the week.
I found Mr. Frank in his office on every occasion except the one I have

mentioned above. Mr. Schiff would help him on the financial. A few
Saturdays I have gone there and Mr. Schiff was not there. He may have
been on his vacation. I hire and discharge all the help. I came in con-
tact with the help ninety per cent. more than Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank has
nothing to do with employing or discharging them. On Saturday, Hol-
loway is supposed to leave the factory at four o’clock and the night
watchman comes on. We had no negro night watchman there last Sep-
tember as stated by Mr. Dalton. Our night watchman was Mr. Ken-
dricks, a white man. The first time we ever hired a negro night watch-
man was three weeks before the murder. As to who else stayed at the
factory on Saturday afternoons, usually the office boy, sometimes the
stenographer, Walter Pride, who cleans up the third floor. I have never
known any other time but Saturday that the financial sheet was worked
on, except possibly a holiday. I saw Conley on Monday. He looked to
be excited and when I spoke to him he failed to look up as he usually
does. I went around the factory that morning and looked at everybody
to see if I could pick out a man that looked suspicious, and Jim Conley
was the man I thought looked fhost suspicious. The latter part of last
year I issued orders that the sweepers must stop cleaning up by twelve
o’clock and if they hadn’t cleaned up by that time they would have to
knock off and leave the factory. If they stayed there after twelve o’clock
I didn’t know anything about it. Harry Denham usually stayed in the
factory every other Saturday afternoon to clean the motor and oil the
machinery and he selected some one to stay with him. He would do this
about twice a month. The girls in the packing department did quite
some overtime work on Saturday afternoon.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I have made no contribution toward the fund to defend Frank. I
don’t know anything about Daisy Hopkins’ general character. I don’t
know who nailed up the door on the Clark Woodenware side. Lots of
people have been there all over the factory. If a body had been shot
down the chute, behind those boxes, it would have been hidden more than
where it was found. The boxes around the chute are piled nearly to the
top. I never noticed any difference in the boxes Sunday from what I left
them there Saturday. No, I don’t know anything about Conley being
there Saturday afternoons and watching. He wasn’t there by my in-
structions. There is a good deal of water on the floor of the metal room.
On payday in order to keep the people from coming down the back, the
instructions are always to close the back door to the metal room. There
is no special reason for the paint to go out of the polishing room, but it is
out in other places. It is carelessly done. You can see haskoline scat-
tered around. The floor in metal room where body is supposed to have
been found has a rise of several inches in it, something like an edge. As
to whether a man standing up and looking over the safe door hasn’t got
a vision going beyond the clock so that he could see everybody that reg-

istered, he couldn’t see it. I tried it. I don’t know whether either the
clock or the desk has been moved before I went to see. My recollection
is that the table is nailed to the wall and the clock screwed to the table.
You can tear the whole thing up and move it. The desk could not be
moved without my knowing it. I didn’t have the clock fixed after April
25th.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
On Friday last I made an experiment by sitting at Frank’s desk and
leaned over as far as I could see through the outer door towards the clock.
I could see half of the circle on clock No. 2. I could not see any of the
other clock at all. The clock and desk could not have been moved with-
out my instructions. The paint is scattered all round. It gets all over
the place and we can’t prevent it. We never have washed the metal
room floor since I have been there. We never found any water or blood
where it was said the girl’s body was found in the metal department.
The view I got from front door on April 26th into area around elevator
shaft was blocked by boxes.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I communicated immediately with the police when we found the
blood back there. I think Harry Scott was the first man I reported Con-
ley’s nervousness to. It was on Monday, April 28th.

E. F. HOLLOWAY, recalled for cross-examination.
I am the day watchman and time keeper. I look after the register to
see that everybody registers. No, it was not a habit of Conley to regis-
ter or not as he pleased and to get his pay anyhow. If he didn’t register
I always got after him. I applied the same rule to him as I did to any-
body else. I never saw Mr. Frank goose, pinch or joke with Conley. I
never saw him touch him in any way, unless it was when he would go in
the office to borrow money, I would see him hand him a quarter, or some-
thing. He surely was a good hand at borrowing, but Mr. Frank would
never let him have a nickel but what he owed him. Up till twelve months
ago the sweepers stayed at the factory until about 2:30, but then they
made a rule that any sweeping that wasn’t done by noon on Saturday
would have to go over until Monday and since that time no negroes have
been there since 12 o’clock. We never had any negro nightwatchman in
July, August, September, or any time last fall. We never had a negro
night watchman until we hired Lee, which was about three weeks before
the murder. Since June of last year, on Saturday afternoons, I always
stayed around the factory and looked after seeing that nobody came in
or out, unless they had business. I never have seen anybody goose Con-
ley. Sometimes I would kick him to make him go on to his work. The
door that leads to the Clark Woodenware place never was locked. It was
nailed up when the Clark Woodenware moved out of there. I nailed it

up myself. It was open on the Monday after the murder. It led back to
a chute in the rear, and to two waterclosets on the right. Nobody occu-
pies that now. I was at the factory every Saturday since last June ex-
cepting legal holidays when the factory was shut down. I did not miss
a single Saturday in July, August, September, October, November, De-
cember, and January, excepting legal holidays. On Thanksgiving Day
I stayed there until 12 or 1 o’clock. I have never missed a Saturday
since I have been working at the factory. I would be relieved on Satur-
days at 4:30 p. m. I would go all over the building trying to see that
everything is all right. That was my business. I have never known Mr.
Frank to have any woman on Saturdays excepting his wife. She came
there on Saturdays and went home with him, about once a month. Mr.
Schiff helped Mr. Frank on his books on Saturdays. Conley never did
watch the door down stairs. If he did, it must have been after 4:30 p. m.
I never did see him giving signals to Mr. Frank and Frank giving him
signals from upstairs. I was obliged to have seen them if he had watched
the door. I sat mainly in the front of the building to see that nobody came
in building. I do not recall any Saturday afternoon that Frank and Schiff
missed except when Schiff was off on his vacation. I have never seen any
of them bring any women in there or take any out. I have never been
sick or missed a single Saturday since last year. I would leave about
4:30 Saturday afternoon. I have never seen Dalton in the factory at all.
I wouldn’t have let a fellow like that in the building unless I knew what
his business was. There was nobody practicing any immoralities in the
building. If they did I would know it. I would have put them out
quickly. Daisy Hopkins quit sometime in May or June last spring. She
has never been there since she quit. Mr. Darley left the factory be-
tween 9 and 10 o’clock on April 26th. He was not there after 11 o’clock
at all. If he was, he was there after 11:45, the time I left there. I have
never seen the front doors locked on Saturday. I was at the factory un-
til noon on Thanksgiving Day. I saw no girls with white shoes and stock-
ings there that day. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never saw any
woman at the factory that day. I sure would have seen Conley had he
been watching the door that day. I have seen Mr. Frank at the factory
every Saturday afternoon after he comes back from lunch. I would pass
in and out of his office three or four times in the afternoon. I have never
seen a glass of beer as long as I have been there. I have never seen any
women up there. He would be working on his books. Mr. Schiff would
be helping him. The stenographer and shipping clerk would sometimes
be up there. People would be liable to drop in there on business and I
would send them up to Mr. Frank’s office. I always kept the door on
Saturdays. I never turned it over to Conley or anybody else. I have let
Mrs. Frank in and would tell her to go up in the office and have a seat.
This man Wilson worked on Saturday afternoon most all the time. Oiled
up the motor and cleaned it while the factory was closed. Pride, Harry
Denham, Charlie Lee, and Fast usually worked there on Saturday oiling
the machinery after they shut down and different things. They were not

shut off by any doors from going anywhere they wanted in the factory.
They were liable to come down and around any time. I have never seen
the doors either to the outer or inner office of Mr. Frank locked. They
have got glass fronts in them that you can see through, and it would not
have done any good to have shut them. The windows in Mr. Frank’s
office looked right out on Forsyth Street. The shades to them are torn
up so they don’t amount to much. In the morning they will pull them
dow-n to keep the sun out. When they are up you can see pcross the
street. Salesmen frequently visited Frank on Saturday afternoons
when they came in from their runs without any announcement. I have
never known Mr. Frank to refuse to see any of them. It is very dark
about the elevator shaft on the ground floor. The shaft is about ten or
twelve feet from the steps. If a girl was coming down the steps and a
man was in that dark place it would be a very easy job for him to throw
her down the shaft. He could grab her before she ever saw him because
she would be looking toward the door. The members of the firm of Mon-
tag Brothers frequently visited the factory on Saturday afternoons. I
remember seeing Drayman McCrary on April 26th. He came around to
see if there was any hauling. I don’t remember the time. I never saw
Conley on April 26th. If he was there he was skulking around and hid-
ing. I never saw McCrary talking to him that day. On Monday morn-
ing I saw Conley, instead of being upstairs where he ought to be sweep-
ing, he was down in the shipping room watching the detectives, officers
and reporters. I caught him washing his shirt. Looked like he tried to
hide it from me. I picked it up and looked at it carefully and it looked
like he didn’t want me to look at it at all. The day before that he went
out with a pair of overalls corresponding to this blue shirt that he has,
and he said he wanted to carry them to a negro at Block’s candy factory
and he had not had time to have gone to the candy factory before he came
back and said that they were taking stock over there and would not let
him in. The overalls had been washed and dried and I could not tell if
there is anything on them or not. I don’t know whether he can write or
not. At your request to-day I walked from the middle of the car track at
the corner of Broad and Hunter to the pencil factory and then upstairs
in Mr. Frank’s office. I walked just in an ordinary way like I thought a
lady would walk. It took me two and a half minutes. I walked from the
corner of Marietta Street and Forsyth Street to the pencil factory. It
took me six minutes.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I didn’t have any conversation with Kendrick, the night watchman,
since this murder was committed as to whether or not Frank ever called
him after he left the factory that night. No, I did not try to get Kendrick
to swear that. No, I didn’t tell Whitfield the day before they turned up
that big club” Be sure to come back to-morrow, you will be certain to find
something.” So far as I know the general character of Daisy Hopkins

is good. I don’t remember telling you the contrary. I don’t deny sign-
ing that affidavit (Exhibit “I,” State). I don’t remember telling you in
this paper (Exhibit “I,” State), “She is anything but a nice girl. You
can’t depend on what she says.” Yes, I said it in the affidavit I gave it
was 10:45 when Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley left. Mr. Frank got back
about 11 o’clock. That was all guess work about the time they left. I
never said anything about getting the reward for Jim Conley. I told
some of the detectives several days after they came down after the negro
if this negro is convicted he is my negro. I knew about the reward being
offered. If I told you that I sometimes left the factory at three o’clock I
meant four o’clock. Jim Conley worked regularly at the factory except
when he was in the stockade thirty days. Conley registered every morn-
ing, but a lots of times he would not register at dinner and sometimes at
night. I nailed up the door that leads into the Clark Woodenware place
on Monday because we never let that door stand open. Mr. Darley told
me to do it. I know it was not open on Saturday. It was nailed up Sat-
urday noon when I left there and it was open Monday when I got there.
The chutes back there were nailed up. The one next to the rear end of
the building I know was nailed up to keep the Clarke Woodenware peo-
ple from coming up through there. Boxes were piled up back in there.
That stairway back there has been nailed up for some time. Hasn’t been
used since Christmas. If the negro went out and bought beer I didn’t
know it. I never saw him. I don’t recollect whether the drayman was
up there April 26th to get his pay or not. There was so much excitement
in the factory on Monday that we shut down about 9:30. Nobody stayed
at their work. Jim Conley quit work like everybody else and went out.
As to one thing that Conley did that the others didn’t do I haven’t got
any. The shirt he was washing was the same shirt he had been wearing
all day. I say that he was trying to hide the shirt because he was trying
to push it over behind the pipe where you couldn’t see it. He had the
shirt on when he was arrested. He was not trying to hide it then.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was subpoenaed to Mr. Dorsey’s office by regular court subpoenae.
I thought I had to go there. There were three or four men when I got
there.
GEORGE EPPS, re-called for cross-examination.
I was present on Sunday after the murder when a gentleman came
out to the house and talked to me and my sister about when was the last
time we had seen Mary Phagan. He didn’t ask me, he asked my sister.
I wasn’t there. I was in the house. I didn’t hear him ask my sister that.

HARRY SCOTT, re-called for State.
It took Jim Conley two or three minutes to write out the notes that
I dictated to him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a darkey at the
pencil factory. I gave that information to the police department. Mr.
Frank gave me the information when I first talked to him. I never in-
quired of Frank or any of the pencil factory people if Conley could write.
Sunday, May 18th, I was present when Conley made his statement. May
18th. I wrote it out myself. (Defendant’s Exhibit 36). He made no
further statement on that day. He stated that he did not go to the pen-
cil factory at all that day. At that time I knew he could write. He told
me everything that was in that statement. The information that Conley
could write came from the pencil factory on May 18th. On May 18th I
dictated to Conley these words: “That long tall black negro did by him-
self.” I dictated each word singly and I should judge it took him more
than six or seven minutes to write it. He writes quite slowly. When he
was brought before Mrs. White to see if she could identify him he was
chewing his lips and twirling a cigarette in his fingers. He didn’t seem to
know how to hold on to it. He could not keep feet still. He positively de-
nied on May 18th that he had anything to do with the murder of Mary
Phagan and that he was at the factory at all. We talked very strongly
to him and tried to make him give a confession. We used a little profan-
ity and cussed him. He made that statement after he knew that I knew
he could write. We had him for about two or three hours that day. He
made another statement on May 24th which was put in writing. (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 37). He was carried to Mr. Dorsey’s office that day
and went over the statement with Mr. Dorsey. He still denied that he
had seen the little girl the day of the murder. He swore to all that the
statement contains. That statement was a voluntary statement from
him. He sent for Mr. Black and we went there together. We questioned
him again very closely for about three hours on May 25th. He repeated
the story that he told in his statement of May 24th. We saw him again
on May 27th in Chief Lanford’s office. Talked to him about five or six
hours. We tried to impress him with the fact that Frank would not have
written those notes on Friday. That that was not a reasonable story.
That showed premeditation and that would not do. We pointed out to
him why the first statement would not fit. We told him we wanted an-
other statement. He declined to make another statement. He said he
had told the truth. On May 28th Chief Lanford and I grilled him for
five or six hours again, endeavoring to make clear several points which
were far-fetched in his statement. We pointed out to him that his state-
ment would not do and would not fit. He then made us another long
statement on May 28th (Defendant’s Exhibit 38), having been told that
his previous statement showed deliberation; that that could not be ac-
cepted. He told us then all that appears in the statement of May 28th.
He never told us anything about Mr. Frank making an engagement for
him to stamp for him and for him to lock the door. He told us nothing
about seeing Monteen Stover. He did not tell us about seeing Mary Pha-

gan. He said he did not see her. He didn’t say he saw Lemmie Quinn.
Conley was a rather dirty negro when I first saw him. He looked pretty
good when he testified here. Frank was arrested Tuesday morning at
about 11:30; on May 29th we had another talk with him. Talked with
him almost all day. Yes, we pointed out things in his story that were im-
probable and told him he must do better than that. Anything in his story
that looked to be out of place we told him wouldn’t do. After he had
made his last statement we didn’t wish to make any further suggestion
to him at that time. He then made his last statement on May 29th (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 39). He told us all that appears in that statement.
We tried to get him to tell about the little mesh bag. We tried pretty
strong. He always denied ever having seen it. He never said that he
saw it in Frank’s office, or that Frank put it in his safe. We asked him
about the parasol. He didn’t tell us anything about it. He didn’t tell
us anything about Frank stumbling as he got on the street floor at the
elevator and hit him. Since making this statement on May 29th I have
not communicated with Conley and have not seen him. He never told us
that he came from his home straight to the factory. He denied knowing
anything about the fecal matter down in the basement in the elevator
shaft. He never said he went down there himself between the time he
first came to the factory and went to Montag’s. He never said he thought
the name of the little girl was Mary Perkins. He never said anything at
all about Mary Perkins. We pressed him that day as to whether he saw
Mary Phagan or not. He finally told us that he saw her dead body. He
never did tell us that he heard a lady scream though we asked him about
it. He said he did not hear anybody scream while he was sitting on the
box. He said he didn’t hear anything at all that day. He never said any
thing about Mr. Frank having hit her, and having hit her too hard. He
never said anything about somebody running on tiptoes from the metal
department and back again. He said he did not hear any stamping. He
did not tell us anything about Mr. Frank telling him how to lock the door.
He did not tell us anything about Frank having a cord in his hand at the
top of the steps or that Frank looked funny about his eyes or that his face
was red. He didn’t tell us that he went back there and found the little
girl with a rope around her neck and a piece of underclothing or that he
went back to Mr. Frank and told him the girl was dead, or that he wrap-
ped her in a piece of cloth. He said it was a crocus sack. He did not say
anything about Mr. Frank saying “Sh-sh.” He didn’t say that he put
the sack on his shoulder and that body dangled round about his legs. He
said he never saw the ribbon; didn’t know where it was. We asked him
whether there was any thought of burning the body and he said not. He
didn’t know anything about that. He never said anything about his
promising to come back and burn the body or that he said to Mr. Frank
“You are a white man and done it, and I am not going down there and
burn it myself;” or that Mr. Frank had arranged to give his bond and
send him away; or that Frank said he would have a place to get in by
when he came back to burn the body, or said he owed a Jew ten cents and

paid it. He did not tell us of any conversation he had with Mr. Frank on
Tuesday after the murder in which Mr. Frank said “If you had come
back on Saturday and done what I told you there wouldn’t have been
any trouble.” As to the scene between Conley and me when I undertook
to convince him that I knew he could write on Sunday, May 18th, I called
him up at Chief Lanford’s office, gave him a paper and pencil and told
him that we understood he said he couldn’t write and now we knew he
could write and we wanted him to write what we told him. He sat there
and looked at us while we were talking and I told him to write as I dic-
tated and he picked up the pencil and wrote immediately. We convinced
him that we knew he could write and then he wrote.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I got information as to Conley writing through my operations while
I was out of town. McWorth told me when I returned. I got no infor-
mation personally about Conley being able to write from the pencil com-
pany people. Personally I did not get information as to Conley’s being
able to write from pencil company. I got it from outside sources, wholly
disconnected with the pencil company. As to whom I first communicated
anything about Mrs. White’s statement about seeing a negro down there,
my impression is I told it in my many conversations with Black, and
Chief Lanford and Bass Rosser. Don’t know the day. It was shortly
after April 28th. After Conley made his last statement Chief Beavers,
Lanford and I went to the jail with Conley and saw the sheriff and he
went to Frank’s cell. The last time I saw Frank was Saturday, May 3rd.
As to whether Mr. Frank refused to see me, only through Sheriff Man-
gum, as to the number of matters I told Conley didn’t fit the first time
and those I told him didn’t fit the last time, I could not name those, that
would almost be impossible unless I had the statement clear in my head.
I never suggested what to put in or what to substitute or what to change.
They came from Conley himself.

THE STATE RESTS.

————————————————

EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT.

W. W. MATTHEWS, sworn for the Defendant.
I work for the Georgia Railway & Electric Co. as a motorman. On
the 26th day of April I was running on English Avenue. Mary Phagan
got on my car at Lindsey Street at 11:50. Our route was from Bellwood
to English Avenue, down English Avenue to Kennedy, down Kennedy to
Gray, Gray to Jones Avenue, Jones Avenue to Marietta, Marietta to
Broad, and out Broad Street. From Lindsey Street to Broad Street is
about a mile and a half or two miles. We make frequent stops. We were
scheduled to arrive at Marietta and Broad at 12:07(1/2). We were on
schedule. We stayed on time all day. Our car turned up Broad St. Mary

Pliagan got off at Hunter and Broad. It takes generally from two and a
half to three minutes to go from Broad and Marietta to Broad and Hun-
ter. That is a very congested street and you must go slow. I was re-
lieved at Broad and Marietta by another motorman, but sat down in-the
same car one seat behind Mary Phagan. Another little girl was sitting
in the seat with her. We got to Broad and Hunter about 12:10. Mary
and the other little girl both got off and walked to the sidewalk and they
wheeled like they were going to turn around on Hunter Street, both of
them together. The pencil factory is about a block and a half from where
they got off at Hunter and Broad. Nobody got on with Mary at Lindsey
Street. There wasn’t any little boy with her. The first time I noticed
the little girl sitting with Mary was when we left Broad and Marietta
Streets and I went back into the car and saw this little girl sitting with
her. I know the little Epps boy. I have seen him riding on my car. He
did not get on the car with her at Lindsey Street. I saw Mary’s body at
the undertaker’s. It was the same girl that got on my car.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I did not tell one of the detectives that we might have been running
three or four minutes ahead of schedule that day. I remember that Mary
did not get off the car at Broad and Marietta because there was a street
car conductor sitting behind me, an ex-conductor and he had a badge on
his coat and I looked at it and it had a little girl’s picture and I reached
over to where Mary was and said, “Little girl, here is your picture, ” and
she said, “No, it is not.” I don’t know who the other little girl was sit-
ting with her. The other little girl was dressed something like Mary. I
didn’t pay much attention to their dresses, but they looked sort of alike.
Mary’s dress wasn’t black. It was light colored. I know Epps since this
case came up. I could identify him. I never paid much attention to her
hat. It was light colored I reckon but I am not sure. It just seemed that
way.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I identified Mary’s body Sunday afternoon after the murder at the
undertaker’s. There was no doubt about her being the same girl. I
knew her well by sight. She rode on my car lots.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
I can’t tell you whether that is the hat or not she wore.

W. T. HOLLIS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a street car conductor. On the 26th of April I was on the Eng-
lish Avenue line. We ran on schedule that day. Mary Phagan got on at
Lindsey Street at about 11:50. She is the same girl I identified at the

undertaker’s. She had been on my car frequently and I knew her well.
No one else got on with her at Lindsey Street. Epps did not get on with
her. I took up her fare on English Avenue, several blocks from where
she got on. And no one was sitting with her then. I do not recollect Epps
getting on the car at all that morning. Don’t know whether anybody
else afterwards sat with Mary or not. We got to Broad and Marietta
seven and a half minutes after twelve, schedule time. I was relieved at
Forsyth and Marietta Streets, where I got off. Mary was still on the car
when I got off. It takes two and a half minutes to run from Broad and
Marietta to Broad and Hunter. I have timed the car again and again
since then. I identified the little girl at the undertaker’s Sunday after-
noon. Didn’t notice the color of her clothes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mary rode with us two or three times a week. So did Epps. I don’t
know where he got off or where he got on. We are not supposed to come
in ahead of time. We never come in two or three minutes ahead of time.
We are a little late sometimes. I never noticed anybody sitting with
Mary. She was sitting by herself when I got her fare. There wasn’t
but two or three passengers on the car and I know there wasn’t anybody
sitting with her. If Epps was on the car I don’t recollect it. I don’t re-
call the name of any other passengers except Mary Phagan. As to what
attracted my attention to Mary getting on the front end of the car, as a
general rule when she would catch our car Mr. Matthews would say to
her “You are late to-day,” and sometimes she would come in and remark
that she was mad; that she was late to-day and when she came that morn-
ing Mr. Matthews said to her, “Are you mad to-day?” and she said,
“Yes, I am late.” And sort of laughed and came on in the car and sat
down. She usually caught our car when she came in the morning, the
one due in town at 7:07. I didn’t know Mary’s name, I just recognized
Mary’s face as the little girl who traveled with us.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I heard of the murder the next day. Newspaper reporters asked us
to go down and identify the girl. There was no doubt about her being
the little girl who was on our car. Oliver Street is the next street to
Lindsey. I did not see Epps get on at Oliver Street. It is against the
rule of the company to get to the city ahead of time.

RE-GROSS EXAMINATION.

It is not against the rules to get in behind time. Sometimes we
might get there a few minutes ahead of time, but hardly ever. We al-
ways look at our watches at the main destination, just at Broad and Ma-
rietta. We are supposed to do that.

HERBERT G. SCHIFF, sworn for the Defendant.

I am assistant superintendent of the National Pencil Co.; I have
been with the company about five years. Part of my duties was to get
up data for the financial sheet. I occupied the same office as Mr. Frank.
I took a trip on the road on the first Saturday in January. All of the
company’s money except the petty cash was kept over at Montag Bros.’
office at the general manager’s office, Mr. Sig Montag. All mail of the
company is received at Montag Bros. The men in Mr. Montag’s office
made the deposit of money of the company. Mr. Frank and I only
handled the petty cash ranging from $25.00 to $50.00. When we wanted
money for the pay roll, we would get a check from Mr. Sig Montag who
signed for the company. Mr. Frank and I had no authority to sign
checks. I would go to the bank and get the money and we would go to
work at once filling the pay envelopes. We would always draw the exact
amount of the pay roll. Our petty cash amounted to from $25 to $50.
We kept that on hand for items like drayage, kerosene, soap, candles.
The money for the cash would also come from Mr. Montag ‘s office. The
salary of Mr. Frank and myself were paid by check, on the last of the
month, or the first of next month. Mr. Frank’s salary was $150 a month
and my own $80. Montag Bros.’ office is about four blocks from the fac-
tory. The company’s bills were paid from Montag Bros.’ office, where
all the finances of the company were taken care of. We simply looked
after the manufacturing end. The financial sheet which Mr. Frank and
I worked on on Saturdays showed how our week terminates, whether at
a profit or loss. We had to show what we manufactured, what we packed,
the materials that were made to go on the pencils, covering lead, plugs,
tips, boxes. We showed our shipments, what our average order jobs
amounted to, what we purchased for and the price. Our factory week
began on Friday night and went through Thursday night. In making up
the financial sheet we would show it as ending on Thursday of every
week. We couldn’t make it up until Saturday afternoon because our re-
ports very seldom came in before Friday noon and sometimes Saturday
morning and also our pay roll which showed on the financial sheet. These
reports and the pay roll were necessary to make up the financial sheet.
We paid off at Saturday noon. It has been our fixed custom ever since
we have been in existence to make up the financial sheet on Saturday. I
help Frank make out the financial sheet by getting up part of the data,
getting up a sheet that we term the factory record, the number of pencils
packed for the week, getting up the tip records; I get the reports from
the different foremen and foreladies; I get the slat records from the slat
mills, the number of slats delivered to manufacture pencils with, and
give him the totals of the pay roll. With the exception of the last week
in July and the first week in August I missed no time from the factory
after June 1st, excepting my trip on the road during January. With
that exception I have not missed a single Saturday after the first of June,
1912. I usually leave the factory at 12:30 and return at 2 to 2:15. Frank

would leave a little after one and return about three. I do not recall a
single Saturday that Frank returned earlier than I did. As soon as
Frank would get back he would get to work on his part of the data and
he would continue to finish the sheet. We both worked together. The
street doors were always open. Office boy would be in the outer office.
Frequently we were interrupted by salesmen calling on us Saturday af-
ternoon. The stenographers came back very seldom on Saturday after-
noon. We were liable to be interrupted at any time on Saturday after-
noon by people on business. As to who else stayed at the factory on Sat-
urday afternoon, Harry Denham usually, Walter Pride, Holloway, who
would stay until 4:30. Newt Lee was the first negro night watchman we
ever had. Frank and I usually left the factory at half past five or a quar-
ter to six on Saturdays, we usually left together. Very often Mrs. Frank
would come up to the office on Saturday. I never saw Conley around the
office on Saturday afternoon after two o’clock. We never had any wo-
men up in the office. I never saw any there. There is not a bed, cot,
lounge or sofa anywhere in the building. There is a dirty box with dirty
crocus sacks on it in the basement on the Clarke Woodenware Company
side. It is very filthy and dirty down there. I went on the road on the
first Saturday in January, 1913. I got back to the factory that day about
2:15, in the afternoon. There were ten or twelve fellows there. Conley
was not there. They were all there and told me good-bye, with the ex-
ception of two or three who accompanied me to the train, including Mr.
Frank. There were no women at the factory. I have never seen Mr.
Dalton in the factory in my life. Daisy Hopkins worked on the office
floor. She left the factory June 6th, 1912, as appears on the time book.
Never saw her in the factory after she quit work. On the first Saturday
in January, Frank remained in the office with me until 5 o’clock to catch
my train. I was at the factory last Thanksgiving Day. It was very cold
and rainy. It was a holiday at the factory. The office boy and Conley
were also there. I ordered Conley to come back that day to clean up the
box room with Frank Payne, the office boy. Conley got through about
half past ten. I know he did not stay at the factory until noon. Frank
and I were all of the time in the office doing clerical work. Frank left
that day at 12 o’clock. We left together. I saw Frank catch his car for
home that day. Frank was carrying bundles, for the B’nai B’rith, which
was going to have an affair that night. Mr. Frank is president of it. It
is a charitable organization. It takes care of orphans and things of that
sort. I paid off the help on Friday, April 25th, from the pay window out-
side of the office. I remember paying off Helen Ferguson that day. No-
body came up to ask for Mary Phagan’s pay. Before any one could get
another’s envelope, they have to have a note to that effect. There was
no reason for anyone to go to Mr. Frank to get their pay Friday, April
25th. I was at the window paying off employees. We had posters put up
all over the factory announcing that Saturday would be a legal holiday
and that the factory would be closed. Those who would not call for their
pay would frequently come in on the next working day, which in this in-

stance would be Monday. No one could really know whether anyone was
coming in for their pay on Saturday or not. Helen Ferguson did not ask
for Mary Phagan’s pay Friday, April 25th. Mr. Frank and I left the fac-
tory between six and six-thirty that day. I was supposed to get up the
pencil contracts for the week on Friday. It was necessary to get this up
in order to complete the financial sheets. I did not get them up on Fri-
day, because I had to pay off on Friday, and as the week only closed on
Thursday night, we had all we could do to figure out the pay roll and get
the money before the bank closed at 2 o’clock on Friday. That threw ex-
tra work on Mr. Frank in getting up the financial on Saturday. I in-
tended to come back to the factory on Saturday morning, but overslept
myself. Mr. Frank called me by telephone twice on Saturday morning.
My maid answered the telephone. That picture (State’s Exhibit “A”)
shows Mr. Frank’s office, inner office, to be bigger than the outer office.
As a matter of fact the outer office is twice as large as the inner office.
The picture shows an inaccuracy as to the relative position of the eleva-
tor shaft from the outer wall of Mr. Frank’s office. It is directly oppo-
site the time clock. The picture shows it below the time clock nearly to
where the staircase is. The door entering into the Clarke Woodenware
place was open two or three days after the murder. The door was pre-
viously locked. There is a hole back there through which waste is thrown
down. It is an open hole. There is no lid to it. It is big enough for the
body of a girl of the size of Mary Phagan to go through. If a body was
thrown down it, it would roll down and stop on the platform. Mr. Frank
did not know that I had not completed the data sheet (Defendant’s Ex-
hibit “3″) for him before Saturday morning. It usually took Mr. Frank
and me about three hours to finish the financial sheet. That is the finan-
cial sheet that Mr. Frank made up on Saturday afternoon, April 26th
(Defendant’s Exhibit “2.”) It is in his handwriting. I didn’t see it at
the factory on Friday. First saw it the following week when I got it back
from the general manager. It is accurately prepared from the calcula-
tions left by me on the data sheet. I haven’t found any mistakes in it.
The first items on it are standing items and do not require any calcula-
tions, if you know it. Those are the items headed, “direct, indirect, rent,
light, heat, water, power, insurance, sales department, repair sundries,
machine shop.” Under the heading “Material Costs,” the first figure
27651/2 represents the number of gross that we manufactured for that
week. That is the data I furnished him through Wednesday night. I
left it there on his desk on Friday night. Mr. Frank’s calculation corre-
sponds with the data that I left there. He arrived at the same figure,
2765 ?/2, that I did. To get that figure he had to enter all his packing re-
ports for Thursday containing two or three pages, each of them contain-
ing 12 to 15 or 18 items. He has to put that down under the number of
pencils that shows on this sheet. He has to calculate and have a separate
report as to each kind of pencil and then add them up. We manufacture
over a hundred kinds of pencils. That week we dealt with about thirty-
five different kinds. To do this you have to add, multiply, classify and

separate each pencil into a different class. The next item appearing on
the financial sheet is “slats,” 2719?. In calculating that he had to cal-
culate the number of gross of slats used, of the product of the pencils,
which should check up with the number of gross manufactured. He
would have to go through the packing report for that. The next item is
“rubber,” 720 gross at 61/2 cents, 667 + at 9 cents, 7061/2 at 14 cents.
That means the rubber plug that goes into the pencil tips. The cheaper
pencil takes a cheap plug and the higher grade pencil takes a higher
grade plug. That shows how many we use and the kind of plugs; to ar-
rive at that figure he had to go all through the grade of pencils for the
entire week, and separate the different ones. That is quite a calculation.
Next item is “tips,” the different kind of tips that are used on the pencil
to hold the plug. He would have to go through the grade for the entire
week, just like he did for the rubber. The next item is “lead,” which he
had to figure out the same way. Different class pencils take different
class lead. The next item is “supplies,” that is a fixed thing and involves
no calculation. The next thing is “boxes.” We have some pencils that
are packed in boxes and some that are not packed in boxes, and he had to
ascertain what pencils were packed in boxes, and in gross boxes, and in
half gross boxes, multiply them, get them all down together under the
head of” gross” to know how many boxes we used. Next item is “assort-
ment boxes.” He has to sort out his packing reports to know the num-
ber had for that week. The next item “wrappers” requires calculation
because every dozen pencils takes a wrapper. People sometimes want
them packed in tissue paper, and he has to know which pencils are packed.
He has got to go through all the pencils to determine which took wrap-
pers and which did not. Our pencil production averaged 2,500 to 3,000
gross per week. A gross is 144. The next item is “skeletons.” Skele-
ton is a card board with a little place in it where six pencils go on one side
and six on the other and the wrapper goes around it. The assortment
boxes don’t take skeletons, the cheaper pencils do. He had to know the
details of the production of pencils to determine how many skeletons
were used, just like he did the wrappers. The next item that required
figures is “lead deliveries.” We had two other places where we get ma-
terials from, slat mills at Oakland City and lead mills at Bell and Deca-
tur Streets. Mr. Frank kept the pay roll for Bell Street, and the lead de-
liveries for Bell Street. He had to get up for the next item the slats that
were cheap and good. Then he had to calculate all this stuff on down.
Next on this big sheet we have the number of every pencil manufactured.
We only use the numbers that are packed that week. When he gets
through he adds the total of the productions for that week of that depart-
ment and he comes over here and puts it down and multiplies it by the
price, the selling price, and besides these items we have pencils that are
bad. For instance, we have some of these jobs, if they have plugs in
them that are bad, he has to figure the number of plugs and the number
of tips that were in his job and put in all his jobs and come over there and
put down what his jobs amount to. That requires quite a good deal of

calculating. The handwriting on the financial of April 26th is in Mr.
Frank’s usual and average handwriting. I have been over carefully the
calculations in it and it represents accurately the operations of the fac-
tory for that week. We did not do any of the work on that sheet on Fri-
day. I think it would take about three hours to go through the calcula-
tions and complete that sheet. That was our average time. There is no
difference in the handwriting of Mr. Frank in the financial sheet of April
26th, from that of the week previous. It is just the same. The financial
sheets are all kept in this book here (Defendant’s Exhibit “9.”) The
one ending May 30, 1912, is in Mr. Frank’s handwriting. It was made on
the Saturday following that date. None of these financial reports could
be made in less time than two hours and a half. All these financial sheets
beginning with May 30, 1912, down to date are all in Mr. Frank’s hand-
writing. They were all done on Saturday afternoons. From May 30,
1912, up to date, Mr. Frank did not miss making a single financial sheet
on Saturday afternoon. These are the original financial sheets (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit “9.”) They are kept in our safe at the factory. This lit-
tle cash book (Defendant’s Exhibit “10″) shows the petty cash checks
we receive and what we spend it for, little items like kerosene, things like
that. The week of April 26th, we used $56.53 of the $96.48 we had, leav-
ing $40.00 on hand. The next week we had left on hand $34.54. That is
what is marked to balance, but that does not always mean that we have
that much money on hand. It means that we have accounted for it. We
may have lent it out, in advances to men. We put tickets in the cash
drawer when we do that and we count it as actual cash. On that Satur-
day, we couldn’t have over $30 or $35 in the drawer. Yes, I acquainted
Joel Hunter, the accountant, with all the data that goes in the financial
sheet and explained it to him in detail, and also Mr. Bidwell. I gave them
all the data necessary to make up the sheet. The sheet here headed
“Comparison 1912-1913″ (Defendant’s Exhibit “11″ is made up by Mr.
Frank to show the difference between one week of this year and the same
week of last year and in making that up he has to take the financial sheet
that he made this year and turn to the financial sheet that he made last
year for the same week and compare them. This is the comparison sheet
he made on Saturday. It is dated April 24, 1913. (Defendant’s Exhibit
“11.”) The requisition and house order book (Defendant’s Exhibit
“12″) also show Mr. Frank’s handwriting on April 26th. Also the last
two lines of these pencil sheets (Defendant’s Exhibit “7″) are in Mr.
Frank’s handwriting. I made up the pencil sheets through Wednesday,
but he had to make it up after Thursday. He had to put in all the items
from the packing room for Thursday, enter them under the numbers on
these other sheets and then add every item for the whole week. Mr.
Frank had to fill in April 24th on all three papers and then get in all those
totals in on that. All of the last two lines are in his handwriting. He
added up all this report for Thursday. He went through the report to
figure them up, that was usually my work. It would take him about fif-
teen, twenty or twenty-five minutes. The house order book shows what

day an order is received, the firm it is received from, where their place of
business and what date it is shipped. As to what work is in this house
order book (Defendant’s Exhibit 12) that Mr. Frank did on Saturday,
there is work in there in Mr. Frank’s handwriting that wasn’t in there
when I left the night of April 25th. Beginning with item 7187 on page
56, “Received from F. W. Woolworth, store 57, St. Joseph, Mo., came in
on the 16th, 17th, to be shipped at once.” That is in Mr. Frank’s hand-
writing, he entered that order. He would have to have that order before
him before he could enter in that book. The next item he entered was
“House order 7188, F. W. Woolworth, Store 68, Terre Haute, Ind.”
That was to be filled at once. He would send an acknowledgment card
for every order we received. If the order wasn’t understood, he would
write. The next item he entered was “House order 7189, Woolworth
Store 53, Logansport, Ind., to be shipped at once, received on 4-26-13.”
He figured that order out and entered it. The next order is “House or-
der 7190, store 585, DeKalb, Ill., received 4-26-13, ship at once.” The
next order is “House order 7191, store 25, Wilkesbarre, Pa., received
4-26-13, ship at once.” Next order “House order, 7192, store 212, Sara-
toga Springs, N. Y., received 4-26-13 to be shipped at once.” The next
order is 7193, send by mail to United Service Sioux 5 and 10 cent store,
Sioux, Mich., received 4-26-13, to be shipped August 1st.” Next order
is “House order 7194, Dubuque, Iowa, 4-26-13, at once.” Next is “House
order 7195, Montag Brothers, Atlanta, Ga., received 4-26-13, to be ship-
ped at once.” Next is “House order 7196, John Leellie, to John Magnus
Company, Chicago, Ill., 4-26-13, at once.” Next is “House order 7197,
R. E. Kendall Company, Cincinnati, Ohio, received 4-26-13, ship at
once.” All of these eleven orders are in Mr. Frank’s handwriting and
he entered them that day. That is the regular book that we keep those
orders in (Defendant’s Exhibit “12.”) I have looked at the original or-
ders and compared them with Mr. Frank’s entry in the book and they are
correct. I have here the original orders from which Mr. Frank made his
entries, with the exception of one, which I can’t find. They were in Mr.
Dorsey’s possession for some time. These are the eleven original orders
(Defendant’s Exhibits 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24.) After
Frank entered the orders in the house order book, he transcribed them
to these requisition sheets. In other words, in each order that he re-
ceives, he enters the order in the book, then makes out one of these requi-
sition sheets and then makes the acknowledgment of the order to the
party ordering the goods. All of these eleven requisition sheets (De-
fendant’s Exhibits 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35), are in Mr.
Frank’s handwriting and are 0. K. ‘d by me when I check it, which means
that we ship the goods. All of the goods called for by these orders have
been shipped out by me after being 0. K’d. with the exception of the or-
der of R. E. Kendall and Company, 7197, (Defendant’s Exhibit “24″),
which was cancelled by letter. None of these orders were at the pencil
factory when I left there Friday night, and they were there when I got
back on Monday. The work of looking over the orders and entering them

in the order book and making out the requisition has nothing to do with
making out the financial sheet. It is entirely independent of it. The
financial sheet shows the factory’s operations from Friday morning,
through Thursday night. These orders go into the next week’s business.
I saw Mr. Frank on Sunday after the murder. There was no scratch,
mark or bruise on him. Mr. Frank is a man of extreme temperament. If
anything went wrong about the factory, he would go all to pieces and get
nervous. It was not unusual for Mr. Frank to get nervous. When a
young child was run over by a street car, he came back as pale as death,
and I had to give him a dose of ammonia. He was no good for the rest of
the day. I know Jim Conley’s character for truth and veracity. It is
bad. I would not believe him on oath. The paper that these notes
found by the body was written on can be found all over the
plant. They get swept to the basement in the trash. I heard the tele-
phone conversation between Mr. Frank and Mr. Ursenbach about the
ball game. I heard Mr. Frank say, “Yes, Charles, I will go if I can.”
Sitting at Mr. Frank’s desk in the inner office you can see about half of
the dial of clock No. 2. You cannot see the steps leading down to the first
floor. If the safe door is open in the center office you can’t see anything
at all. It would have to be a pretty tall man to see over it. It would be
impossible for a girl of Monteen Stover’s height to see over it. The safe
door is always wide open while we are in the factory. I went through
the safe Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. I didn’t find any mesh bag
or pocketbook. I was with Mr. Frank constantly while he was at the fac-
tory on the Tuesday morning after the murder. He did not speak to the
negro Conley that day. Monday we tried to open up the factory, but
everybody was so excited that we couldn’t do any work. The girls were
standing around crying. We had to suspend. As I went out of shipping
room that morning, I saw Conley standing in the back of room. I said,
“What are you doing here?” He says: “I am scared to go out, I would
give a million dollars if I was a white man.” It is very dark on the
ground floor around the elevator. I have never known the doors to Mr.
Frank’s inner or outer office to be locked. Even if they were you can see
right through them, part of the door being glass. Anybody could look
through them and see what is going on in the office. The door to the ele-
vator can be easily lifted by anyone and anyone can be pushed down the
elevator shaft. The motor to the elevator is on the office floor, and the
wheels are on the top floor. When you start up, there is a noise. You
can always hear the jerk when the rope is pulled, and when it stops there
is a noise and when it hits the basement floor, there is a thud. The motor
also makes a distinct humming noise. The motor box is not kept locked.
I have gotten after Jim Conley many times about not registering. We
have docked him for not doing it. I have noticed blood spots on the floors
of the factory. Whenever one gets his finger hurt, he has to come to the
office to get it tied up. People have gotten hurt in the metal room, and in
coming to the office would walk by the ladies’ closet, through those doors.
The spots that Barrett pointed out in the regular path where a man

would come to the office if he were injured. There were four or five
strands of hair that Barrett discovered. I saw them. Could not pos-
sibly tell what color it was. The metal room floor has not been washed
since I have been there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a negro there.
Frank telephoned me three or four times on Monday to get the Pinker-
ton’s. He was at home. I was at the factory. When the detectives got
to the factory Frank was at the station house. He was there nearly all
morning. He phoned me at first about twelve o’clock, and then again
about twelve-thirty. He wanted me to see if we could not in justice to all
the employees try to sift this thing down, and he suggested getting the
Pinkertons. He phoned again near one o’clock. Mr. Frank spoke about
his nervousness. He didn’t talk a great deal about it. He may have
spoken to me once or twice about it. I think one time he explained to me
how terrible the girl looked and the other time that they rushed him to
the undertaker’s in a dark room and threw on the light. He said he was
awfully shaken up. As to what Mr. Frank said when they telephoned
him about the murder, he asked what was the matter, had there been a
fire at the factory. Another reason he was nervous he said, he hadn’t
had any breakfast, he wanted a cup of coffee. We had been without a
stenographer quite a while. The work had accumulated to some extent.
As to what work there was in the factory for Mr. Frank to do Saturday
except the financial sheet, he entered the orders, made requisitions. I do
not know that Miss Hall entered all those orders. I know she took dicta-
tion. That is all I know about it. The first time I saw those orders en-
tered on the order book was on Monday or Tuesday. It takes about an
hour or an hour and a quarter to enter those orders on the book. It is
true that I testified before the coroner that it wouldn’t take over half an
hour to enter the orders. It takes an hour and a half to do all of the work
of transcribing them that you pointed out to me. Acknowledgments are
usually made by the person who transcribes the orders and enters them
on the requisition. If Mr. Frank didn’t make acknowledgments, that
would not make a difference of over five or ten minutes in time. I said it
would take an hour and a half to do all of the work lying on the table,
requisition and all, transcribe them and acknowledge them. As to what
that work was, beginning with order 7187 on the 26th, there are eleven
orders, going down through 7197. None of that was done on Friday, be-
cause the orders weren’t there when I left Friday night. I left Friday
night at half past six. I didn’t go to the factory on Saturday morning.
I have never timed Mr. Frank entering those orders. I said I guessed it
would take him thirty minutes to actually enter them. After entering
them he must transcribe and acknowledge them. The initials “H. H.”
on these orders (Defendant’s Exhibits 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23,
24), means Miss Hattie Hall, the stenographer. “H. G. S.” on these

requisitions (Defendant’s Exhibits 25 to 35, inclusive), are my initials,
mean that I checked the order and 0. K.’d it and it’s gone. Miss Hattie
Hall wrote the letters acknowledging the orders. I know that because
the latter has the letters “H. H.” dictated by .” We haven’t any reg-
ular way of acknowledging. Some orders are acknowledged before they
are ever touched. There is no certain first step. It is not necessary that
they should be entered in the book first. One step doesn’t hinge on the
other. If Hattie Hall had anything to do with writing these things, it
was done Saturday morning. The orders must also be transcribed from
the order to requisition sheet. The average sheet was the only sheet that
had not been worked on Friday that I found had been worked on when I
got back there. It had not been touched on Friday, and I had not given
any data for it when I left. The data I had to get up for it was the flat
production, the packing room production, the tips, I get that from this
packing room report (Defendant’s Exhibit 4-A). The handwriting is
that of Miss Eula May Flowers, the forelady. When I received that re-
port, I had to accumulate all the data, penciled it, and transferred it to
the pencil sheets here (Defendant’s Exhibit 7). These three sheets are
the only thing connected with the packing room for the week of April
24th. I wrote the figures Wednesday night and Mr. Frank did it Thurs-
day. Mr. Frank had to add two lines to the sheet. He could get those
from Miss Flowers’ report just as well as I could. The figures on the
bottom of the page are his. All the writing on this sheet is mine except
the last two lines at the bottom, which are his (Defendant’s Exhibit 7).
On that sheet, yes, there are just eleven figures, but you got three sheets
to get it from, one line on all three sheets and the total, making six lines
altogether. It is not easy to say how long that would take. It is merely
looking at those things and putting them down, you have got to go over
it, and get the different classes of goods that we pack and take it and put
it under the head of specialty, that is the head of the classes of goods
manufactured that week. You must have the slat record. I haven’t got
the slat record here. It certainly is different from this. It comes from
the cedar mill. The item on the financial sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 2)
that he got from the slat record is the item under “Material Cost”–
“Slats 27191? gross at 22c.” That is all he would have to get on the
financial sheet with reference to slats. That wouldn’t take any more
time than taking these daily reports and putting them on here. He also
had to get the lead deliveries from the lead plant and the tip deliveries
from the tip plant. Our numbers run on the sheet like this, 1OX, 20X, etc.
Our two 1OX pencils, for instance, manufactured for the Cadillac Motor
Company, if they want a pencil with their name on it and our’s not on it,
we call it the 1OX special, of 5 1OX Cadillac special. We have got to go
down through each number that has been sold and get the make of each
style of pencil and they have to go in the right square, covering the right
shape and the right number of gross. If he didn’t he wouldn’t balance
with his packing reports and the whole sheet would be incorrect. These
papers here and the tip plant and the slat record and the lead record and

the packing are all the papers I know were not worked on Friday night
and which I found at the factory when I got there Monday. Frank needs
those four reports to make up his financial. Doing that work and enter-
ing those eleven orders is all that I know Frank had to do on April 26th.
I didn’t see them done. I say I found them done the next week. It was
certainly done between Friday night and Monday morning. I didn’t see
the financial sheet on Monday. The slat record comes from slat mills
and tip record from the tip plant. I compiled the data at our plant. If
Frank had started to work at eight-thirty, I think he could have finished
a greater part of this work by ten-thirty, if he had worked continuously.
It is true that he could have done all of the work in two hours and a half.
I didn’t hear him say that he could have done it in an hour and a half.
The work that I have just been over and the entries in the book and the
letters that he dictated to the stenographer is the sum total of all the
work that I have seen done on the books in the office on April 26th. Mr.
Frank and I were not paid off on the 25th, or 26th. In addition to the
work I have gone over, Mr. Frank had to balance the cash. This is his
writing in the cash book (Defendant’s Exhibit 40) and all those figures
were made that day. It doesn’t mean that 15c worth of kerosene was
purchased that day, because the entry is not dated that day, it means
that the figures were put on there that day, for the reason that the week
is not closed until that is added to the cash. The date this kerosene was
purchased, April 21st, is found in the little receipt book (Defendant’s
Exhibit 10). It was purchased on the 21st, as shown in the receipt book,
but was not entered in the cash book until the 26th. We don’t put our
items in the cash book the minute they are purchased. We put the total
of each item under sub-heads. If we pay drayage $2.00 on Tuesday, $2.00
on Thursday and $2.00 on Saturday, there would not be three entries in
the cash book, but they would be under one head “Drayage, $6.00,” and
everything else the same way. When we advance a man money it is put
down on a slip and entered in an envelope, called “Loan.” We don’t
take a receipt for it. I can show that Frank gave $2.00 to Arthur White
and it was deducted. I made the entry in the time book the next week
and deducted it the following Saturday. We don’t enter it on the cash
book. This average sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 5) is all in Mr. Frank’s
handwriting. It begins from January 10, 1911. As a rule Mr. Frank put
on the financial sheet the average to show the General Manager how the
average of our orders have run. I don’t see it on the financial for that
week. It is no rule. I said he usually does it. It doesn’t affect the finan-
cial sheet, however, if it is not on there. It doesn’t keep the financial
sheet from being completed. I say he did work on the average sheet on
Saturday because those orders came in that day. I know they could not
have been entered the Thursday before and they were entered in fact Sat-
urday because I had gone over the orders and find that they average the
same thing that he has got on the average sheet. None of these orders
came in the factory before Saturday morning, because they were not
there Friday night when I left. I am sure of that. I have never known

Mr. Frank to leave there on a Saturday with the financial sheet not ready.
He would not go to a ball game unless he had his work up. I heard him
say on Friday afternoon that he was going to try to go to the ball game.
We left there Friday night together. He didn’t go back that night. I
said at the coroner’s inquest that if the data had been gotten up for him
it would take him an hour and a half to two hours. I don’t remember
saying that it would take only two hours and a half for both the data and
the financial sheet. I meant two hours and a half without the data. I
say it would have taken from two and a half hours to three hours to have
gotten it all up. I am not an expert accountant, and I base my opinion
on the reason that I have gone back at the same time and have sat down
with him while he was working and seen him when he was finished. He
couldn’t hurry over the work, and get it correct. I think he could get it
up quicker than I could. I am positive that I said at the Coroner’s in-
quest that he could get it up a half an hour quicker than I. I may have
said so, that was only an estimate. I have never made up a financial
sheet. My estimate of the time referred to Frank doing it. I couldn’t
tell how long it would take to balance that cash. I said at the Coroner’s
inquest between an hour and an hour and a half. It all depends on
whether you balance or not. We keep our little change in nickles, dimes,
quarters and halves, and you have to take the money out of the sack,
stack it up and count it. As to how I remember where I was last Thanks-
giving Day, because I was going to Athens to see the Georgia foot-ball
game. I remember it snowed and I didn’t go. I told Conley and the
office boy to come back and be at the factory. The second reason I re-
member is because of the B’nai B’rith affair which Mr. Frank went to
and I helped him carry his packages to the car. As to my remembering
every Saturday that I have been there for six months previous, I have
never lost a day from the factory since I have been there with the excep-
tion of my vacation. I was with Mr. Frank until half past twelve on
Thanksgiving Day, when I left him at the corner of Mitchell and Ala-
bama, where he caught a Washington Street car. I don’t know what he
did that afternoon. I do know that I remained at the factory every Sat-
urday afternoon since I have been there because I have not lost a day. I
paid off Friday, April 25th. I remember Helen Ferguson coming to the
window and I paid her. I can tell you the names of many more that I
paid off that afternoon. (Witness gives names of eight or ten more he
claims to have paid off). Mr. Frank and Mr. Holloway were there at the
time. It is very dark underneath the chute near the Clarke Woodenware
Company place, and we kept shellac in front of the door there. It is the
door to the left. We did not have boxes piled around there after this
murder occurred. If a body had been shot down there, it would have
been 20 or 25 feet from that door. We go down there every day or so to
get shellac; you don’t have to pass by the opening under this chute. I
never mentioned any indication that anybody had walked around the
chute. I saw the place in the metal department on the second floor where
they said there was blood. It looked like a small spot covered with

white. It looked like blood from a finger being cut. It looked like hasko-
line had been splashed all over the metal department. There was noth-
ing different about that particular spot from any others, except that it
was red. It looked like it had been swept over. As to those steps by the
chute I don’t know that they were nailed up immediately after the mur-
der. Three days after I came up those steps. I don’t remember whether
it was before or after the insurance people made us clean up. I know I
was at the factory on Saturdays and holidays after twelve o’clock. I
change the clock at times if I find that it is not right. We don’t run it
five minutes ahead of time. Every time I look at it it is on time. We do
not have to regulate it often. We regulate it by the whistle in back of us
every day at twelve o’clock. We don’t set it every time we hear the whis-
tle though. We have had unreliable people at the factory. We give them
a trial. I knew that Conley was unreliable a good while ago. Found it
out the first time I ever spoke to him. When we found that we couldn’t
trust him we took him off of the elevator. Mr. Darley and I did it. We
didn’t take it up with Frank. Girls in the factory have told me about his
worthlessness. Miss Carson and others have told me he tried to borrow
money and slip off. She complained to me several times about it, that he
was trifling and didn’t clean up her department, that he didn’t move the
pencils, that he sprinkled on top of the pencils, that he tried to borrow
money. The negroes would come to me and told me that he wouldn’t pay
his debts and slip off. I don’t know whether I ever took these complaints
to Mr. Frank or not. I was not under Mr. Frank. I had authority to fire
him, but I didn’t do it, because in a factory like that it is hard to get a
negro who knows something about it. He was in the chain-gang two or
three times, once he worked on Forsyth Street in front of the building,
and then women would come up to me and try to get money to get him
out, two or three times. That has happened since he has been working
at the factory. I know that he has been in the chain-gang once, when I
saw him working in front of the factory. The times was when women
came up there and tried to get money to get him out. I have seen these
books scattered all over the factory, whole books and parts of books. I
have seen them since this murder. Both before and after. I have seen
sheets sometimes. I knew that Jim could write. I have given him and
the other negroes tablets like this (State’s Exhibit H). They are kept
everywhere in the factory. They would go down in the basement and
write. I did not talk to Frank on Monday or Tuesday about Jim Con-
ley’s peculiar conduct after the murder. I talked to Darley.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

When I stated that it took two and a half hours to three hours to
make up the financial sheet, I meant without any interruptions. We have
quite a few interruptions on Saturdays, salesmen drop in, draymen and
people come in, for their envelopes after we have paid off. When I said
to Mr. Dorsey that he might do the work from 8:30 to 10:30, I had refer-
ence purely to the financial sheet. Making the entries in the house order

book, requisitions and dictating the correspondence, I did not include.
The correspondence and the entries in the requisition book is usually
done in the morning. We usually go to Montag Brothers about 8:30, get
the mall, come right back, acknowledge the orders and answer the corre-
spondence. I have never known Mr. Frank to take up the financial sheet
before the afternoon. After he finished his financial, Mr. Frank would
usually make two copies of the result of it, and send one of them to his
uncle, who is a stockholder and the other to Mr. Pappenheimer, who is
the president. My estimate of the time was two and a half hours for the
financial sheet, and one and a half hours for the other work. Mr. Dor-
sey’s picture (State’s Exhibit A) shows nothing in the Clarke Wooden-
ware Company except the front of it. It has left out every scuttle hole,
and toilet and everything there. It fails to show the door that enters into
the partition to the basement. Hasn’t got either one of these two front
doors. Mr. Frank’s wife frequently did some shorthand work for him
on Saturday afternoons. I have seen her there often when we were be-
hind in our work. The haskoline did not hide the red spots at all. You
couldn’t tell whether it was on top or on bottom of the red. It is nothing
unusual for the white stuff to be spilled all over the metal room. I did
not know that Conley was denying that he could write in the station
house, for quite a while. The Pinkerton men came over to the factory to
find out if he could. I looked all over and found a card where he had
signed a signature for a jeweler for a watch. The detectives found the
information by coming to the factory. The negroes always ate in the
basement. Conley was familiar with the basement. Mr. Dorsey sub-
poenaed me to his office, he subpoenaed some of the others. I think he
phoned to me. Empty sacks are usually moved a few hours after they
are taken off the cotton.
RE-GROSS EXAMINATION.
I had no objection to coming to your (Mr. Dorsey’s) office. I offered
to assist you in any way I could. No, it was not Mr. Frank’s custom to
make an engagement Friday for Saturday evening and then go off and
leave the financial sheet untouched. The pencil factory is three or four
blocks from Montag’s. Some of them are short blocks. Guess it takes
three to five minutes to go over there. I have never timed myself. The
first time on Monday I observed the peculiar behavior of Conley was be-
tween half past seven or eight o’clock, he was sitting in dressing room on
a box. It was after that I went with Detective Starnes to try to locate
Gantt and arrest him. Frank never went to baseball games or matinees
on Saturday. The only pictures that are hanging on the walls of Mr.
Frank’s office is a calendar that Truitt and Sons give away. No, I don’t
know whether the detectives found out elsewhere that Conley could
write. I gave them the information when they came to the factory. It
was on Monday morning that I saw the haskoline and the red spots. If
the blinds had been closed it would have been some darker, not a big dif-
ference.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I have never seen Mr. Frank talk to Mary Phagan.

JOEL C. HUNTER, sworn for the defendant.
I am a public accountant, engaged in the profession ten or fifteen
years. I have examined the financial sheet said to be made by Leo M.
Frank. I examined a copy and then checked it against the original. In
order to find out how long it would take a person to make out these re-
ports, I went through the calculations. I did not make out the sheets. I
verified the extensions and calculations on the financial sheet (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 2). I found them correct within a decimal. There is one
item a decimal is incorrect. That was immaterial, merely an error in
the calculation. In order to find out how long it would take that report
to be made up, I made an examination, line by line, item for item. I fig-
ured an approximate time it would take to make the various entries if
they had all of the data immediately available, and how long if it was not
immediately available. I put these down in two separate columns and
then struck an average. In my opinion the quickest possible time to make
out this report, balance the cash, make out the comparative statements
and the copies of which they furnished me, I figured 150 minutes. I
don’t think that could have been done in that time except by someone
having experience in it and knowing how to set up these facts and figures.
This would not allow for checking the figures. In my opinion, it would
take from three to three and a half hours to make out this report, balance
the cash, make out the two copies and the comparison of 1912 and 1913.
(Witness then details time it would take in his opinion for each particu-
lar item that has been calculated and entered and how he figured it). In
my opinion it would take a pretty swift man three and a half hours.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
A man’s familiarity with a special class of work will aid materially
in making it up. If he had had to get up the information which was fur-
nished me it would take him a good deal longer than it did me, for the
information was already furnished me. I have allowed for his experi-
ence and familiarity with the business, in the way of saving time, in mak-
ing my estimate. I have tried to make my figures sufficiently conserva-
tive to make allowance for a man in charge of the work. I have tried to
show it done in the quickest possible time. I think it will be wonderful to
make it in less than that. I think a man who could make it out and verify
it as he went along, it would take the whole afternoon.

C. E. POLLARD, sworn for the Defendant.

I am an expert accountant. I was called into this matter for the pur-
pose of seeing the length of time it would take to gather these figures and
get the result on the financial sheet and other papers that were furnished

me. I studied each sheet and when I was sure of what the result would
be I would lay that sheet down and make a copy of it. I would take time
myself for each operation. There was a discrepancy of one and one-half
gross on the factory records in the figures, out of 27651/2 gross, (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 2). It was an immaterial error. The minimum time that
I could do that work in I found to be three hours and 11 minutes, that
was as quick as I could do it. If I had been interrupted in my work, of
coursb it would have taken me longer. I have been an expert accountant
for 15 or 16 years. The mistake that I found occurred on the Saturday
of the week before. It was not Frank’s mistake, but somebody else com-
piled the figures for that week. There is another trifling mistake under
the head of “value of products, pencils packed” that did not figure the
same as mine. Those are the only two mistakes I found on the whole
financial sheet-a mistake of 50c. and a gross and a half of pencils.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
In making my experiment of how long it would take, I was furnished
with all my data. I didn’t have to get up any of the data. I am consid-
ered rapid in my work. The mistake of one and a half gross occurred on
April 18th and 19th. I don’t know whose mistake it was. Anybody can
work on his books with a great deal more ease than an outsider can. The
mistake I mentioned did not make the other calculations wrong, the other
calculations were all right. The mistake grew out of just one multiplica-
tion. In multiplying 791 gross at 50.1 cents, Frank made the total $396.75,
instead of $396.29.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
In making out this sheet Mr. Frank had to make about 40 multipli-
cations, 160 additions. The mistake is not a serious one.

HERBERT G. SCHIFF, recalled for cross examination.
The books show that $4 was loaned to Arthur White. I made the en-
try in the book. The $2.00 was for what Mr. Frank loaned him that day
and $2.00 loaned him the middle of next week. As to where the entry is
that Mr. Frank lent Arthur White $2.00 these slips are not kept after we
take it off. After the pay roll is made we destroy those. The books show
that this $2.00 was added to the other $2.00. There was approximately
$1,100.00 paid off on Friday on the pay roll. There was about 5 or 6 en-
velopes left over, not called for. The numbers go on different places on
the envelopes. The clocks we have now are the same we had when Gantt
was there. Whenever there was any trouble we phoned for a man to look
after the clock.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
Whenever accidents would happen in the factory we would have the
person come to the office, to the outer office, wherd we would bandage
their hands with the few medical supplies we keep there. Then we make
a report to the insurance company as to the cause of the accident and any
witnesses. We always found the clocks kept good time.

MISS HATTIE HALL, sworn for the defendant.

I am a stenographer for the National Pencil Company. I do most of
the work in the office of Montag Bros. Whenever it is necessary I go
down to the National Pencil factory and do work there. I saw Mr. Frank
about ten o’clock of the morning of April 26th, at Montag Bros., when he
came over there that morning. He came in Mr. Sig Montag’s office, where
I was taking dictation and I told him that I didn’t know whether I would
be able to go over there that morning or not, as Mr. Montag was giving
me letters and Mr. Frank said: “Well, come if you possibly can.” He
had previously asked me over the telephone to come over to the factory.
That was about half an hour before he came over to Montag Bros. I
had called him up to get a duplicate bill of lading and in the course of the
conversation, I asked him if he would need me over there that morning,
on account of his having an inexperienced stenographer over there, I had
been going over there all during the month of April on that account. He
said “Please come over, I have some work for you to do.” It was 20 or
30 minutes after that that he came over to Montag’s. When he came in
I told him that I was afraid I couldn’t go over on account of the work I
had to do at Montags, but Mr. Montag finished his dictation in a few min-
utes, and I then told Mr. Frank that I would have time to come over there
and that I would be over there later. I started over to the factory be-
tween 10:30 and 11. I went alone. It takes about five minutes to get over
there and I reached there before eleven o’clock. I don’t know whether
Mr. Frank was there when I got there. I waited in the outer office a few
minutes before I started to work. I went in the inner office to get the or-
ders to acknowledge for Mr. Frank. I acknowledged them for Mr. Frank.
I acknowledged them in the outer office. I do the typewriting in the outer
office. These are the 11 orders (Defendant’s Exhibit 11 to 24, inclusive),
that Mr. Frank handed me and I acknowledged. You notice my initials
on them “H. H.” I put on there “Acknowledged, April 26th, by “H. H.”
Mr. Frank got the orders when he went over to Montag Bros. and
brought them back with him. The acknowledgments are the first step, in
that case. Several people came in while we were working, two men, one
whose son worked there came in and spoke to Mr. Frank about the boy’s
being in some trouble in the police court. They went into the inner office
to talk to him and he came out to the outer office with them. Miss Corin-
thia Hall and Mrs. White also came in there in Mr. Frank’s office and I
talked with him. During this time Mr. Frank was not doing any work on
the financial sheet. I find in this book (Defendant’s Exhibit 12) all of
the eleven orders which I acknowledged that morning, one order seems
to be missing, I just find a requisition sheet for that. I did not enter
those orders on the book. It looks like Mr. Frank’s handwriting. I did
not write any of these requisition sheets. The entering of the requisition
was done after I acknowledged the orders, because when they enter them
the house order number is put on them when they are put in the book and
there was no house orders on them when I acknowledged them. There-
fore, it had to be done afterwards. The requisition sheets are not made
out until they are entered on the house order book and then acknowledged
and then the requisition sheets are made. These eight letters (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit were dictated to me Saturday morning by Mr. Frank
and I typewrote them there in the outer office. After finishing them I
took them in the inner office to him. I did not file these carbon copies, but
left them with Mr. Frank. Throughout the time that I was there that
morning with Mr. Frank he did no work on the financial sheet. As I
was ready to leave the noon whistle was blowing. At that time I was in
the outer office. I went downstairs, and remembered that I had left my
umbrella, went back, got my umbrella and started out. When I pushed
the clock it was 2 minutes past 12. I did not see any little girl come along
about that time.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
The stenographer the pencil company had was inexperienced and
did only about one-third of the work and that’s the reason I had to do the
other. I was getting $12.50 a week on April 26th. I am now getting $15.
When I was first employed they said they would give me a raise on Aug-
ust 1st. I insisted that I be raised on July 1st, but they wouldn’t give it
until August 1st. It was I that called Mr. Frank over the telephone. I
did not insist on going over there. He insisted on my coming. The ac-
knowledgments consisted of stamping orders with a number, putting the
dates down there and acknowledging them by post cards sent to the peo-
ple. Mr. Frank did not leave Montag ‘s with me. He left before I did.
He didn’t know how long it was going to take me to write those letters.
Mr. Montag hadn’t finished dictating to me when I talked to him, so he
did not wait. While I was there in the office, two men and three women
came in. The ladies came after the office boy had left and he said he left
about 11:30. The men were in the inner office with him about five or ten
minutes. I was in the outer office. I started to work typewriting about
two minutes after he finished dictating the letters. I don’t know how
long it took me to write them, I am not a very rapid typist. During the
time I was writing, Mr. Frank was in the inside office, except when he
came out to talk to Mrs. White and came to the door with those men. Af-
ter typing them, I took them into him to sign. He folded the letters and
put them in the envelopes himself. He did not ask me to stay until he
looked over the letters. As to what else there was to be done that day,
from the looks of the papers on his desk he had a good many to dispose
of. He went through them as he was dictating to me, and there were a
good many that he had to get rid of. I was over at the factory the pre-
vious Saturday morning. He was not working on the financial sheet. I

got up for him the number of gross deliveries and the price and made an
average charge of how much each gross would cost. That was a part of
the data necessary for the financial sheet. When I testified before the
Coroner, I thought that was the financial sheet itself, because I had never
seen a financial sheet before. I know now that it was the average sheet. I
transferred some of those things to the average sheet. I never did see
the financial sheet. Mr. Montag gets it. I did not help Mr. Frank on the
financial sheet the previous Saturday. It was the average sheet I helped
him on. I discovered my error as to this being the average sheet and not
the financial sheet soon after the coroner’s inquest. I know that Mr.
Frank was not working on the financial sheet on the Saturday morning
previous to the 26th. He was busy with something else altogether. He
simply gave me that data to work on. I did not identify the financial
sheet at the Coroner’s inquest, I didn’t even know it. I was not in Mr.
Frank’s inner office on April 26th, excepting when I got the orders from
him. When I told the Coroner’s jury, if I did tell them that, I didn’t re-
member being in his inner office at all, I have never been in a court room
before. I was so rattled that I wasn’t exactly myself. Mr. Frank told
me that morning he wished Mr. Schiff would come over and finish the
data, that he couldn’t fix the financial sheet until Mr. Schiff got up the
data, and he had Alonzo Mann telephone him to come over there to do it,
but Mr. Schiff didn’t come while I was there. I said at the Coroner’s in-
quest that I didn’t see Mr. Frank working on any of these books that
day, that I was in the outer office and he was in the inner office. There
wasn’t any such looking sheet as the financial on his desk. When I was
in there he was at work on a pile of letters and things like that.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
When I was first employed at the factory Mr. Nix said to me, “I
will give $12.50 a week, when the busy season opens up, about the first of
August, I will raise it to $15. About the middle of June, I asked him to
raise it on the first of July, but he said, “We will wait until August 1st.”
At that time I testified at the coroner’s inquest, I had never seen any of
the financial sheets. I did not write a figure on that financial sheet. At
the inquest I thought the average sheet was the financial sheet. I told
Mr. Frank that I couldn’t stay longer than 12 o’clock, and he asked me to
stay all the afternoon and help him, that he was busy. I also heard him
ask Harry Gottheimer to come over in the afternoon.

MISS CORINTHIA HALL, sworn for the Defendant.

I work in the finishing up department of the pencil factory. I am a
forelady. I was at the factory on April 26th, I got there about 25 min-
utes to twelve. I had to come to town on the East Lake car and got to
town about 11:30 and it took me about five minutes to reach the factory.
Mrs. Emma Clarke Freeman was with me. She had spent the night with
me. We went there after her coat and to telephone, to call up Mrs. Free-

man’s husband. We went up to the fourth floor to get the coat and then
came down and went in Mr. Frank’s office. It was about 15 minutes to 12
when we left the factory. Mr. Frank was writing when we came in his
office. His stenographer was in the outer office. Mrs. Freeman said she
would like to use the telephone. She used the telephone and then we
went out. During the ten minutes we were there he was talking to two
men between the outer office and the clock. He was dismissing those two
men when we came. Mrs. White and the stenographer were in the office
then also. As we were going up the steps, Mr. Frank called to Mrs. Free-
man to tell Arthur White to come down that his wife wanted to see him.
On the fourth floor we saw May Barrett, Arthur White and Harry Den-
ham. When we left the factory, the following people were still there:
Arthur White, Mrs. White, May Barrett, her daughter, Harry Denham,
the stenographer and Mr. Frank.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
We met Mr. Holloway between Broad and Forsyth Streets as he
came out of the factory as we went in. We met Lemmie Quinn after-
wards at the Greek Cafe. Don’t know what time it was when we came
out, we went to corner of Alabama and Forsyth to use a telephone. It
took us about five minutes to go there and come back to Greek Cafe. We
got a cup of coffee and sandwich and were getting the change when Quinn
came in.

MRS. EMMA CLARKE FREEMAN, sworn for the Defendant.
I married on April 25th. I worked at the pencil factory before that,
at the time I was married. I was paid off on April 25th by Mr. Schiff.
On the 26th I reached the factory with Miss Hall about 25 minutes to 12.
I saw Mr. Frank at his office. He was talking to two men when we went
in. Mrs. White and Mr. Frank’s stenographer were also in the office.
Mr. Frank gave us permission to go up on the fourth floor to get my coat.
While we were going up the steps Mr. Frank called to me to tell Mr.
White that Mrs. White wanted him. We went on up, I got my coat and
came down, and asked permission of Mr. Frank to use telephone in his of-
fice. I used the telephone. I spoke to Mrs. White a few minutes and then
we left, which was about a quarter to twelve. I remember looking at the
clock. When we left, there was in the building, May Barrett, the stenog-
rapher, May Barrett’s daughter, Arthur White, his wife, Harry Denham
and Mr. Frank. We met Lemmie Quinn afterwards in a cafe. He said
he had just been up to see Mr. Frank. (Cross examination waived).

MISS EULA MAY FLOWERS, sworn for the Defendant.

I did not work at the factory on Saturday, April 26th. I worked
there Friday, the 25th, in the packing department. Mr. Schiff got from
me the data for the financial sheet on Friday night at ten minutes to six.

It was the production for the entire week from my department. It covers
all the different classes of work where the goods were finished.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I always turn those reports in Friday night or early Saturday morn-
ing. They don’t touch Friday’s work.
MISS MAGNOLIA KENNEDY, sworn for the Defendant.
I have been working for the pencil factory for about four years, in
the metal department. I drew my pay on Friday, April 25th, from Mr.
Schiff at the pay window. Helen Ferguson was there when I went up
there. I was behind her and had my hand on her shoulder. Mr. Frank
was not there, Mr. Schiff gave Helen Ferguson her pay envelope. Helen
Ferguson did not ask Mr. Schiff for Mary Phagan’s money. I came out
right behind Helen Ferguson. We waited for Grace Hicks and then went
down stairs. Helen didn’t say anything about Mr. Frank at all. We
went down stairs about five minutes to six. We saw Helen Ferguson
start up Forsyth Street.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
On Monday, April 28th, Mr. Barrett called my attention to the hair
which he found on the machine. It looked like Mary’s hair. My machine
was right next to Mary’s. There is a good deal of water over there by
Mr. Quinn’s room. Mary’s hair was a light brown, kind of sandy color.
You could plainly see the dark spots and white spot over it ten or twelve
feet away. Helen and Mary were the best of friends and were neighbors.
Helen made mention that Mary was not there when we were paid off. I
have never noticed any spots around the metal room. That’s the first
time I had ever seen anything like that.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I have never looked for spots before. It’s a dirty floor, full of oil
dirt. I don’t know whose hair that was. Helen did not ask Mr. Schiff
for Mary’s money. She did not have any business going to Mr. Frank
when Mr. Schiff was there paying off. She did not go in and ask Mr.
Frank for Mary’s money. I left with her. I went one way and she went
another.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank paid off sometimes. If there is any trouble about the
amount of our money, we would go to anybody that was in the office. Mr.
Frank was not paying off that day.

WADE CAMPBELL, sworn for the Defendant.

I have been working for the pencil factory for about a year and a
half. I had a conversation with my sister, Mrs. Arthur White, on Mon-

day, April 28th. She told me that she had seen a negro sitting at the ele-
vator shaft when she went in the factory at twelve o’clock on Saturday
and that she came out at 12:30, she heard low voices, but couldn’t see
anybody. On April 26th, I got to the factory about 9:30. Mr. Frank was
in his outer office. He was laughing and joking with people there, and
joked with me. He thought I wanted to borrow some money. I stayed
about five or ten minutes and left the factory. That was about 9:40. I
have never seen Mr. Frank talk to Mary Phagan. On Tuesday after the
murder I went up on the fourth floor with Mr. Frank. I did not see the
negro Conley talk to him at all that time.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
My sister said she saw the negro when she went in the factory. When
she heard the voices coming out, she was coming down the steps from the
second floor. I saw the spots where they claim was blood, close to the
girls’ dressing room on second floor. I couldn’t say whether it was blood
or not. I deny that I ever said that my sister said she saw the negro on
the box when she came out of the factory. He was sitting on a box be-
tween the elevator shaft and the staircase. That looks like my signature.
I don’t know whether it is or not. Yes, I corrected certain statements in
that paper.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I went to Mr. Dorsey’s office because he subpoenaed me. I thought
I had to obey it. Mr. Starnes and Mr. Campbell and the stenographer
were there. All of them asked me questions. I signed a statement about
twenty-one pages long. I have seen Jim Conley reading newspapers up
on the fourth floor, twice since the murder. It is not unusual to see spots
all over the metal room floor.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
Conley was sitting by the elevator when he was reading those papers,
during working hours. The other time he was reading down at the rear
end of the building. It was an extra, but I don’t know what paper it was.
I knew that he could write because I had seen him do it several times,
with pen and ink. I don’t know whether he was making up his report of
boxes, but I have seen him writing. Yes, I have seen spots along the
route from the ladies’ closet to the elevator ever since I have been there.
They have red varnish and red paint and such things like that that look
like blood. I am sure there are spots all around in the metal room, but I
won’t say they look like the spots near the ladies’ dressing room.

LEMMIE QUINN, sworn for the Defendant.
I am foreman of the metal department. Barrett pointed out to me
where he claimed to have found blood spots on the metal room floor. He

asked me whether I thought that he (Barrett) would’get the reward if
Frank were convicted. He told me that several people told him that he
had a good chance to get the reward. He said a fellow told him that he
would get $2,700 one time and $4,500 the other time. He mentioned that
reward to me on several occasions. The floor of the metal room is very
dirty. You could not tell at the alleged blood spots whether they were
varnish or oil. We have blood spots quite frequently when people get
their hands cut. I remember a man by the name of Gilbert was hurt in
that room. He was carried towards the main office by the ladies’ dress-
ing room and sent to the hospital. He bled freely. That was about a
year ago. About eight months ago a boy cut his hand pretty badly and
was carried by the ladies’ dressing room to the main office, right over
the place where Barrett found the blood spots. His hand was bleeding.
About a hundred women work in the factory. Haskoline is scattered all
over the floor of the metal room. That floor has never been scrubbed
since I have been to the factory. I could not tell what color hair it was
Barrett found. There were only a half dozen strands in it. Chief Lan-
ford took it. There is a place in the room where the girls dress their hair
by a little gas jet which they use for heating a curling iron. It was about
ten feet from the lathe where Barrett claims to have found the hair. If
a breeze was blowing from this window from the west it would blow to
where the girls were fixing their hair. The last time I saw Mary Phagan
before the murder was Monday. She left about two o’clock. She left
about two o’clock because we were out of material and she was laid off
for the rest of the week. I have never seen Mr. Frank speak to her. I
went to the factory on April 26th, to see Mr. Schiff. He was not there. I
often go to the factory on Saturdays and holidays. The street doors were
open when I got there. I did not see Mary Phagan, nor Jim Conley, nor
Monteen Stover. The doors to Mr. Frank’s inner and outer office were
open. The time I reached Mr. Frank’s office was about 12:20. I saw Mr.
Frank on Sunday at Bloomfield’s undertaking establishment in the after-
noon. He had on a black suit. On Saturday he had on a brown suit.
There was no blood spots under the machine where Barrett claims to
have found the hair. On Monday Mr. Frank had on a brown suit. There
was no blood at the spot where Conley claims the body of the girl was
found. It was perfectly dry there, there was no water on the floor.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I noticed the blood spots at the ladies’ dressing room on Monday. I
did not tell Mr. Payne and Mr. Starnes that I was not in the factory on
April 26th. I told nobody that. Mr. Frank is not the first person to
whom I told it. He did not tell me to keep quiet about it until he saw his
lawyer. I did not tell the officers about it. Mr. Frank said he remem-
bered my being at the factory, but did not remember the time. At the
coroner’s inquest I said it was pretty close to 12 o’clock when I got to
Wolfsheimer’s. I don’t think it could have been as early as quarter af-
ter twelve when I got to the factory. As to why I did not tell the officers,

they could have gotten it if they had asked me. I never mentioned it to
Barrett either. I told Chief Lanford on the following Monday that I
was at the factory. I told it to Frank on Tuesday. He said he would
mention it to his lawyers. I told Frank I didn’t like to be brought into it
but if it would help him in any way I would do it. As to whether I would
have mentioned it or not, was up to Mr. Frank. He afterwards told me
that his lawyers advised him to mention it at the coroner’s inquest. That
was Tuesday afternoon. I told you in the statement I gave you that I
could not swear positively as to the time I was at the factory. I said I
got to the pool room between 12:20 and 12:30. I had been up in the fac-
tory before I met Mrs. Freeman and Miss Hall at the Busy Bee. I was
in the office and saw Mr. Frank between 12:20 and 12:25. At that time I
made the statement to you that I was there between 12:00 and 12:25 I
had reckoned the time down as I have now. The back door at the stair-
way going up from the office floor to the top floor is fastened with a bar.
It is not closed except on pay day. It is true that a man at the office door
could easily lift bar and walk up, but a man could not come down to of-
fice floor from above at all. Anybody could fix that bar in its place in
half a minute. I told you in the detective ‘s office that I reckoned the
time of my being in the factory from the time I left home and the desti-
nation I went to, and I said I could not remember the stop at Wolfs-
heimer ‘s which took ten or fifteen minutes, and that is why I reckoned it
so positively. I left home I know at about a quarter to twelve. I looked
at my watch. It takes twelve or fifteen minutes to walk to the factory. I
got to Wolfsheimer’s pretty close to 12 o’clock. I was there ten or fif-
teen minutes.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
At the time the detectives and Mr. Dorsey talked to me about the
murder, I overlooked the fact that I had been to Wolfsheimer ‘s. My wife
called my attention to it when I got home. I mentioned this matter to
my father and my wife before I ever mentioned it to Mr. Frank. Mr.
Frank did not tell me not to mention it to anybody. If a detective had
asked me I would have told him what I knew about it. At the Coroner’s
inquest I said it could have been as early as twenty minutes after 12 that
I got to the factory, because I had reckoned my time down from leaving
home and the number of steps, and I said it must have been between
12:20 and 12:25.

HARRY DENHAM, sworn for the Defendant.

I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I was paid off Fri-
day, April 25th. I came back Saturday to do some work. Mr. Darley
asked me to come back. I had to work on the machinery when it was not
running. That was the only time I could do it. I got there about 7:30.
Mr. Holloway was there when I got there. Between 12 and 1 o’clock I
was working on the varnish machine. We were hammering. We worked

until ten minutes after 3. We began to take an old partition out and put
in a new one about 12 o’clock. It took a good deal of hammering; we
were making a racket up there. May Barrett was the first person to
come upstairs that day. She came about quarter past eleven. Stayed
about three-quarters of an hour. It was after twelve when she left. Mrs.
Freeman and Miss Hall were the next to come upstairs and stayed about
fifteen minutes. They got a coat and went down. Mrs. White came up-
stairs about 12:30 to see her husband. She had a good long talk with
him. She was still upstairs when Mr. Frank came up. He told Mr. and
Mrs. White that he was going to dinner and would like to close the doors.
He stayed up there just long enough to tell us that and then went down-
stairs. Mrs. White went right down behind Mr. Frank. I never heard
the elevator run that day. I was up on the fourth floor all day. I can see
wheels turning on that floor. There were no noises in the factory that
day, excepting street noises. When the elevator stops it makes no noise;
it shakes the floor a little when it stops. You can’t hear anything except
shaking the building when it starts. You can hear the elevator better
when the machinery is not running. If the wheels had been running that
day I could have seen them from where I was. When I left at ten min-
utes after three, I saw Mr. Frank. Mr. White and I came down together.
Before we went out, Mr. Frank came upstairs about three o’clock and
asked was we getting out, and we told him we were getting ready to go
right now. We were washing right then. When we came out we saw Mr.
Frank at his desk in his office writing. Mr. White borrowed $2.00 from
him. He did not look nervous or unusual. You can look down from the
landing on the third floor and see whether anything is being put in or
taken out of the elevator on the office floor. White and I on the fourth
floor could have gone anywhere in the building that day. It was open to
US.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
We were working about 40 feet from the elevator. There were cro-
cus sacks upon the floor where we were working. The first time Mr.
Frank came upstairs was about ten minutes to one. At the coroner’s in-
quest I said I wasn’t certain of the time. The second time he came up
was about three o’clock. We had finished our work and were washing up
and getting ready to go. I am not certain of the time he came up the first
time. I think it was 10 minutes to one. That’s about the time Mrs. White
left. He didn’t say he was going right then. He said he wanted to go
out. The wind was blowing strong that day and slapping the blinds
backward and forward. There were no other noises inside the building.
We stayed up on the fourth floor all day except one time when we went
down about a quarter past eleven to have Mr. Holloway put some pieces
on the band saw. It was a mistake when I told at the coroner’s inquest
that I had not left the fourth floor at all that day. A person could have
gone in the building and gone out and we not have known it. We were
knocking and hammering all the time about midway of the building. It

might have been a good deal of noise on the office floor and we would not
have known it. I said at the coroner’s inquest that Mr. Frank had a
habit of rubbing his hands together. We left Mr. Frank in the factory
when we left there. I saw some spots Monday they said was blood.

MINOLA McKNIGHT (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I work for Mrs. Selig. I cook for her. Mr. and Mrs. Frank live with
Mr. and Mrs. Selig. His wife is Mrs. Selig’s daughter. I cooked break-
fast for the family on April 26th. Mr. Frank finished breakfast a little
after seven o’clock. Mr. Frank came to dinner about 20 minutes after
one that day. That was not the dinner hour, but Mrs. Frank and Mrs.
Selig were going off on the two o’clock car. They were already eating
when Mr. Frank came in. My husband, Albert McKnight, wasn’t in the
kitchen that day between one and two o’clock at all. Standing in the
kitchen door you can not see the mirror in the dining room. If you move
up to the north end of the kitchen where you can see the mirror, you can’t
see the dining room table. My husband wasn’t there all that day. Mr.
Frank left that day sometime after two o’clock. I next saw him at half
past six at supper. I left about eight o’clock. Mr. Frank was still at
home when I left. He took supper with the rest of the family. After this
happened the detectives came out and arrested me and took me to Mr.
Dorsey’s office, where Mr. Dorsey, my husband and another man were
there. I was working at the Selig’s when they come and got me. They
tried to get me to say that Mr. Frank would not allow his wife to sleep
that night and that he told her to get up and get his gun and let him kill
himself, and that he made her get out of bed. They had my husband there
to bulldoze me, claiming that I had told him that. I had never told him
anything of the kind. I told them right there in Mr. Dorsey’s office that
it was a lie. Then they carried me down to the station house in the patrol
wagon. They came to me for another statement about half past eleven
or twelve o’clock that night and made me sign something before they
turned me loose, but it wasn’t true. I signed it to get out of jail, because
they said they would not let me out. It was all written out for me before
they made me sign it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I signed that statement (State’s Exhibit ” J “), but I didn’t tell you
some of the things you got in there. I didn’t say he left home about three
o’clock. I said somewhere about two. I did not say he was not there at
one o’clock. Mr. Graves and Mr. Pickett, of Beck & Gregg Hardware
Co., came down to see me. A detective took me to your (Mr. Dorsey’s)
office. My husband was there and told me that I had told him certain
things. Yes, I denied it. Yes, I wept and cried and stuck to it. When
they first brought me out of jail, they said they did not want anything
else but the truth, then they said I had to tell a lot of lies and I told them
I would not do it. That man sitting right there (pointing to Mr. Camp-

bell) and a whole lot of men wanted me to tell lies. They wanted me to
witness to what my husband was saying. My husband tried to get me to
tell lies. They made me sign that statement, but it was a lie. If Mr.
Frank didn’t eat any dinner that day I ain’t sitting in this chair. Mrs.
Selig never gave me no money. The statement that I signed is not the
truth. They told me if I didn’t sign it they were going to keep me locked
up. That man there (indicating) and that man made me sign it. Mr.
Graves and Mr. Pickett made me sign it. They did not give me any more
money after this thing happened. One week I was paid two weeks’ wages.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

None of the things in that statement is true. It’s all a lie. My wages
never have been raised since this thing happened. They did not tell me
to keep quiet. They always told me to tell the truth and it couldn’t hurt.

EMIL SELIG, sworn for the Defendant.

I am Mr. Frank’s father-in-law. My wife and I live with Mr. Frank
and his wife. The kitchen in our house is next to the dining room. There
is a small passage way between them. The sideboard in the dining room
is in the same position now, as it has always been. Mr. Frank took break-
fast before I did on April 26th and left the house before I breakfasted. I
got back home to dinner about 1:15. My wife and Mrs. Frank were eat-
ing then. They told me in the morning to come home a little sooner, that
they wanted to go to Grand Opera that afternoon and have dinner a little
earlier than usual, and I came home a little earlier. Mr. Frank came in
after I did, about 1:20. There was nothing unusual about him. No
scratches or bruises about him. He sat down to his meal. The ladies left
us while he was still eating. I don’t know what Mr. Frank did after din-
ner, I went out to the chicken yard. Mr. Frank was still in the hall when
I got back. I laid down and went to sleep. I did not see him when he left.
I saw him about 6:30 that evening. Mrs. Frank and Mrs. Selig had not
yet gotten back. They came in a short while. We ate supper about seven
o’clock. I noticed nothing unusual about him at supper. We finished
supper about 7:25. Mr. Frank sat in the hall and read. A party of our
friends came to the house and played cards after supper. Frank and his
wife did not play. They do not play poker. They play bridge. He was
reading in the hall while we were playing. He came in one time while we
were playing and said he read a story about a baseball umpire’s decision
and he was laughing. Frank answered the doorbell several times that
evening when the guests came. He and his wife went to bed before the
company left, about 10 or 10:30. He came to the door and told us good-
night and went upstairs. His wife went up shortly afterwards. Our
party broke up about half past 11. I did not hear the telephoning early
Sunday morning. I saw no scratches on Frank Sunday morning.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have never seen the servants move that sideboard. I say it was
about 1:20 when Mr. Frank came home to lunch, because I left town about
1:10. The car reaches our corner between 1:10 and 1:20. I got home a
little after one. About 1:10. Mr. Frank may have laid down and taken
a nap after dinner. I don’t know. I laid down and took a nap. Mr.
Frank was gone when I woke up. I have heard Mr. Frank frequently
call up the factory from his home at night. I talked very little with Mr.
Frank on Sunday when he got back home. I don’t recall any conversa-
tion I had with him relative to the murder. I did not pay any attention
to anything he said about the murder at dinner time. I have no recollec-
tion of telling coroner’s jury that he did not leave before I got up. I
don’t know what I told coroner about talking to Frank that day. I knew
that my son-in-law was superintendent of factory and that a girl was
found killed there and I did not refer to the subject that day. I don’t re-
member saying that Frank didn’t say anything about it when he came
home. I ate dinner with him. I remember stating at coroner’s jury that
Frank came home and didn’t say a word about it all day to me.

MRS. EMIL SELIG, sworn for the Defendant.

I am Mrs. Frank’s mother. Mr. and Mrs. Frank have been living
with us two years. The sideboard is in the same position it always has
been except when we sweep under it. We had lunch on April 26th after
1 o’clock, about ten minutes past one. Mr. Frank came about twenty
minutes past one while we were eating. He sat down with us and ate. Mrs.
Frank and I left before he did. We left about half past one. He was still
eating at the table. After the opera, while we were on the street car,
passing Jacob’s drug store we saw Mr. Frank at about 6:10. I happened
to look up at the clock and saw it was 6:10. We stopped at my sister’s,
Mrs. Loeb before going home. Mr. Frank was there when we got
there. We saw nothing unusual about him. No scratches, bruises,
wounds or marks. We got home about half past six. We sat down to
supper about a quarter to seven. Mr. Frank ate with us. We finished at
a quarter past seven. We played cards that night in the dining room
with a party of friends. Mr. Frank and his wife did not play. They do
not play poker. They play bridge. He was sitting in the hall reading.
Mr. Frank answered the doorbell and let in some of the guests. He came
in once while we were playing cards to tell us about a joke that he had
read about an umpire and he laughed out very heartily. He went to bed
between ten and ten-thirty. He told us all good-night before going. Mrs.
Frank followed a few minutes afterwards. We played cards until about
twelve. I did not hear the telephone ring next morning. It did not wake
me up. I saw Mr. Frank next day about 11 o’clock. I saw no blood spots
or marks or bruises or cuts about him. I think he was arrested on
Tuesday.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I am not mistaken about seeing Mr. Frank about 1:20 on Memorial
Day. We were eating dinner when he came in. Mr. Frank got home
about 11 o’clock Sunday. He told us he had been sent for to come to
town. He spoke of a crime having been committed. I asked him what
had happened. I don’t remember that he told me about the crime. He
did not seem unconcerned about it. I said at coroner’s that I thought he
seemed unconcerned about it. I don’t remember his remarking about
the youth of the girl or the brutality of the crime. He didn’t describe
any wounds. He didn’t give any theory as to how it happened. He was
anxious as to how it happened. I have forgotten what suits Mr. Frank
wore Saturday, Sunday and Monday. I think I said before the coroner
that he wore the same suit Saturday, Sunday and Monday. But I was
mistaken. I don’t remember saying before coroner whether Frank evi-
denced any curiosity or advanced any theory about it or not. I knew he
wore one suit during the week and a different one on Sunday, and my im-
pression was that on that Sunday he wore the same one. I don’t think
Mr. Frank mentioned the name of the girl that was killed on Sunday.
The first that I knew of it was when I saw her name in the paper the
next morning. The subject was mentioned at the dinner table on Sunday.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

My health is bad and I did not care to hear much of the facts of the
crime at the time. I was operated on the next day. Mr. Frank spared
my feelings. These are the clothes Mr. Frank wore on April 26th (De-
fendant’s Exhibit 49).

MISS HELEN KERNS, sworn for the Defendant.

I work for the Dodson Medicine Company as stenographer. My
father works for Montag. I took shorthand under Professor Briscoe
last winter. I have seen Mr. Frank in his factory. I went there with
Professor Briscoe to get a job. I didn’t get the position. I was working
on the 26th day of April for Bennett Printing Company. That day I got
off about 12 o’clock. I then went around in town to the different stores
and did some trading. I had an appointment to meet a girl at 1:15 at the
corner of Whitehall and Alabama Streets, at Jacobs’ Drug Store. About
5 minutes after one I came out of Kress’ Store on Whitehall Street. I
looked at the clock in front of Freeman’s Jewelry Store. I immediately
went to Jacobs’ corner. I had been standing there about five minutes
and I turned around and saw Mr. Frank standing there right up against
the building at the corner of Alabama and Whitehall Streets. I do not
know how long he had been there. That was about ten minutes after one.
After I saw him I waited about ten minutes until my friend came. She
was a little behind time. She came about twenty minutes after one. I

read about this tragedy about the middle of the week. I then recalled
seeing him about that place and told my father.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Yes, there was a large crowd on the street that day. I had been
standing there about five minutes when I turned around and saw Frank.
It was not packed and jammed at that time, not up against the building.
The procession did not come along until almost three o’clock. There was
plenty of room on that corner. I stood there from five minutes after one
until twenty minutes after one. After I met my friend we went back to
Kress’. I did not speak to Mr. Frank. He was standing up against the
building up Alabama Street. It was not real crowded up Alabama Street.
You could not stand in the middle of the sidewalk. I got a clear view of
Mr. Frank. I don’t think he saw me. I don’t think he would have recog-
nized me because he sees so many faces every day he would not know
mine. I had only met him once. I recognized him. I can’t be mistaken
about the time I saw him because I looked at the clock just before I got
there. When my friend met me we went around the corner. The clock
stood twenty minutes after one. Kress’ store did not close at 12, be-
cause I was in there after 12. I am sure of that. I was watching the
clock because I had an appointment at a quarter after one. I left Kress’
at five minutes after one and went down Whitehall Street to Jacob’s cor-
ner. Whitehall Street was badly crowded. It didn’t take me more than
a minute or a minute and a half to walk down to the corner. It was only
a few steps. There was no one standing between Mr. Frank and myself
on Alabama Street.

MRS. A. P. LEVY, sworn for the Defendant.

I live right across the street from where Mr. Frank lives. I am not
a relation of his either by blood or marriage. I saw him get off a car on
Memorial Day between one and two o’clock. I was dressing to go to the
matinee and was watching the cars as they passed to look out for my son
who was late to dinner and saw Mr. Frank get off the car and cross the
street to his home. I had a clock on my dresser and also one in the din-
ing room, and I was hurrying to meet a friend at 2 o’clock, and I wanted
to see a sick friend before going to matinee.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I noticed that Mr. Frank got off at 1:20, because I was looking at the
clock. I was watching the car for my son. I had already had lunch. I
could not wait for him. He tried to get me over the phone but could not
reach me. The reason I knew it was that time I was looking at my clock
and noticing the cars as they passed and my son had not come yet. That
was the only reason I would have noticed it.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

My children on Memorial Day instead of coming home at 12:20 or
12:30, came home at 1:30.
MRS. M. G. MICHAEL, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Athens. On April 26th, I was at 387 Washington Street at
2 o’clock, at the residence of my sister Mrs. Wolfsheimer. Mrs. Frank
is my niece by marriage. I am no kin to Mr. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank
about 2 o’clock on April 26th. He was going up Washington Street to-
wards town when I first saw him. I remembered it was about 2 o’clock,
because my son David was going to the matinee and he had to leave home
before 2, and he had just left a few minutes when I saw Mr. Frank. I was
on the front porch when I saw him. He came up just to the front porch.
He greeted me and asked me about my people at home. We carried on a
casual conversation. I noticed nothing unusual about him. I noticed no
scratches or marks or any nervousness about him. He walked up Wash-
ington Street to the corner of Glenn and caught the Washington Street
car going to town at Glenn Street. My son Jerome, my nephew Julian
Loeb and my sister Mrs. Wolfsheimer were also there and saw him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He had not seen me for several weeks. He didn’t know I was in the
city, and when he saw me there on the porch he came over to speak to me.
387 Washington Street is three doors above Georgia Avenue. I saw him
take the car at the corner of Glenn and Washington Street.

JEROME MICHAEL, sworn for the Defendant.
I live in Athens. I was in Atlanta on April 26th. I took dinner at
Mrs. Wolfsheimer’s residence at 387 Washington Street. I saw Mr.
Frank upon that day between five minutes to 2 and 2 o’clock. I know it
was that time because I had an engagement with a young lady and I had
a watch in my hand most of the time. My brother Dave had just left for
the opera when Mr. Frank came up. When I first saw him he was going
toward the right hand corner of Washington Street and Georgia Avenue,
going up Georgia Avenue. I saw him and called him and when he saw my
mother standing on the porch he came over and spoke to her. He stood
on the steps of the porch, he stood there just a few minutes until the next
car came. I noticed absolutely nothing unusual about him. No scratches,
bruises, marks and no nervousness. He ran up to the corner of Glenn and
Washington Streets and caught the Washington Street car there going
to town.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I had my watch in my hand about the time I saw Mr. Frank. I prac-
tice law.

MRS. HENNIE WOLFSHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant.

I am the aunt of Mrs. Frank. I live at 387 Washington Street, the
third house from the corner of Georgia Avenue. On April 26th, I saw
Mr. Frank in front of my house. It was about 2 o’clock. We had fin-
ished dinner which we ate at half past one. I was not on the porch when
he came up but I walked out on the porch after he came. I did not see
him catch the car as I was called in the house before he left. I saw noth-
ing unusual about him. No nervousness or bruises or scratches. I saw
no stains on his clothes, no marks or tears of any kind.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

The time is fixed in my mind because we ate dinner at half past one
and we had just finished. I was not looking for any scratches or bruises,
but I certainly would have seen them if they had been there. I was close
enough to him to have seen him.

JULIAN LOEB, sworn for the Defendant.
I live at 380 Washington Street, across the street from the Wolfs-
heimer residence. I am a cousin of Mrs. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank on
April 26th in front of the Wolfsheimer residence. I was there when he
came by. It was between 1:50 and 2 o’clock. He was talking to Mrs.
Michael and Mr. Jerome Michael and was inviting them to attend a meet-
ing of the B’nai B ‘rith lodge on the next day which was Sunday. He was
president of that lodge. He left and walked towards town up Washing-
ton Street towards Glenn. I didn’t see him catch the car.

COHEN LOEB, sworn for the Defendant.
I was on the car with Mr. Frank going back to town on April 26th
after lunch. I caught the car at Georgia Avenue and Washington Street.
He caught the car at Glenn and Washington Street which is one block
nearer town. That was about 2 o’clock. It was a Washington Street car
which goes straight up Washington Street to the Capitol and turns down
Hunter. We sat together on the same seat in the car. Mr. Frank got off
the car about two or three minutes before I did. He got off in front of
the Capitol at about 2:10. The car was blockaded by the crowd which
was watching the parade. Mr. Frank went down Hunter Street. There
was nothing unusual about him. No marks, or scratches or spots on him.
He had on a brown suit and a derby.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank was sitting next to the window. I know Mr. Hinchey. I
did not recognize him as he passed our car in the machine but I recog-
nized his machine. It was going down the street. I recognized it by the

dark color. It passed right in front of the car so close as to hit the car
and that’s what called it to my attention. The top of the machine was
up and the sides were open. The car was a dark maroon color and seats
from four to seven passengers. I don’t know the number of it. I just
saw a dark maroon car. I found out afterwards that it was Mr. Hinchey.
I only noticed that particular automobile because it ran up in front of
the car and the car hit it and nearly turned it over. The accident oc-
curred right at us. There was no jolt to the street car. It was going too
slow. They just came together and scraped.

H. J. HINCHEY, sworn for the Defendant.
I have known Mr. Frank between four and five years. I am mechan-
ical engineer for the South Atlantic Blow Pipe Co. I saw Mr. Frank on
April 26th opposite the main entrance to the Capitol on Washington
Street. I was driving an automobile. He was on the street car coming
down Washington Street going to town. I saw him but did not speak to
him. It was between 2 and 2:15. As to how I knew that was the time af-
ter this matter came up I experimented to see just what time it was I
saw him on the car, and I have gone over my movements just as I did
them on that day, and the first time I experimented I got to the Capitol
five minutes past two, and the second time I got there at eight minutes
past two, and the third time exactly at two o’clock. I came very near col-
liding with the car in front of the Capitol, as I drove around in front of
the Capitol. This car Mr. Frank was on rolled up in front of me. As I
looked up at the car I saw Mr. Frank sitting in the front end of the car.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw him only for a moment. I was too much occupied in trying to
get out of the way of cars and vehicles. The crowd was very thick. I
have been to see Mr. Frank once in jail. I mentioned to him that I saw
him that day. Mr. Frank and I were only business friends. We have
had pleasant business transactions and also controversies. I did not go
to jail to talk it over with him. I went there because I had been knowing
him for five or six years and was interested in him, because he was im-
plicated in the case. We were not personal friends, but have had a great
many business dealings with each other and I naturally felt an interest
in this matter.

MISS REBECCA CARSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the National Pencil Co. I have been there over three years.
I work on the fourth floor. I am forelady of the sorting department. I
have from thirteen to fifteen girls under me. At times I have heard the
elevator running when the machinery in the factory was not running. It
makes a noticeable noise. You can notice the vibration of the building
and you can notice the ropes of the elevator running, and you can hear

the cables of the elevator knocking. On Friday, April 25th, I got my pay
about 5:30 from the office. On April 26th I saw Mr. Frank looking at the
parade in front of Rich’s between 2:20 and 2:25. He spoke to me. I saw
him again at ten minutes to three going into Jacobs’ Pharmacy at the
corner of Whitehall and Alabama Street. I looked at the clock at that
time. On Monday morning I said to Jim Conley, “Where were you on
Saturday? Were you in the factory?” He said, “I was so drunk I don’t
know where I was or what I did.” And Snowball, who was standing
there, said, “I can prove where I was. I also overheard a conversation
that he had with my mother when he said Mr. Frank was just as innocent
as an angel; and when my mother said “The murderer will be the negro,
Mrs. White saw sitting on a box at the foot of the stairs,” Jim dropped
his broom quick and didn’t finish sweeping.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

He made that remark to me about 8 o’clock Monday morning and I
went right back and told my mother of it. The elevator makes enough
noise to know it is running. You don’t notice it when the machinery is
running. You wouldn’t know whether it was running or not unless your
attention is directed to it. I had looked at the clock five minutes before I
saw Mr. Frank in front of Rich’s. I had just looked at the clock also be-
fore I saw him going into Jacobs’. I am certain of the times I saw him.
That was the exact time by the clock. I get $10.00 a week. Last time my
salary was raised it was raised in January. There has been no raise
since then. I had heard that some of the sweepers sometimes stay on
Saturday afternoons to sweep. I didn’t know it. I just asked him if he
was there at the factory Saturday afternoon. He never before admitted
being drunk to me before. Nobody suspected Jim of the murder at that
time. I told my mother of it because I tell her everything. I told Mr.
Darley about it. I don’t remember when I told him. It was before Con-
ley was arrested on Thursday. I told Mr. Rosser when he was at the
factory. That was after Jim was arrested. I did not see the red spot in
the metal room on Monday. I didn’t go in the metal room until Tuesday.
I didn’t see it then, because I wasn’t looking at the floor.

MRS. E. M. CARSON, sworn for the Defendant.

I worked at the pencil factory three years. Rebecca Carson is my
daughter. I am a widow. I have seen blood spots around the ladies’
dressing room three or four times. I was at the factory Friday morning.
I left about 12:45. I saw Jim Conley on Tuesday after the murder. He
was sweeping around my table, I said, “Well, Jim, they haven’t got you
yet,” and he says, “NO.” On Wednesday I said the same thing and he
answered the same thing. On Thursday when I said that to him again
he said, “No, I ain’t done nothing.” I said, “Jim, you know Mr. Frank
never did that,” and he says, “No, Mr. Frank is as innocent as you is,

and I know you is.” I said, “Jim, whenever they find the murderer of
Mary Phagan it’s going to be that nigger that was sitting near the ele-
vator when Mrs. White went upstairs.” He laid his broom down then
and went out. I could not believe Conley on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

My daughter and I work on the fourth floor. Mr. Frank was up on
the fourth floor Tuesday between nine and eleven o’clock. Everybody in
the department was around there at that time. I don’t know whether
any of them heard-the conversation between me and Mr. Frank then. I
saw both Mr. Frank and Jim Conley on the fourth floor on Tuesday. I
did not see Mr. Frank whisper to Conley. Mr. Frank never said a word
to any of us about sticking to him. He said it was a deplorable thing lit-
tle Mary being killed. I have seen blood in the dressing room around the
lockers and some around the mirror. I have seen girls up there mash
their fingers on the machines. I have seen blood in the sink in the toilet
room and on the machines where they cut their fingers. I saw a spot as
big as my hand sometime last year on the fourth floor near a garbage
can. It looked like blood to me. I have seen spots about as big as my
finger, different spots up on the fourth floor. I have seen girls once or
twice come in with their fingers mashed come into the toilet room and go
to the sink after they had mashed their fingers. I don’t know when I
heard that Mrs. White said that she had seen a negro sitting on the box.
I think I read it in the paper sometime that week. The big spot of blood
I was talking about was occasioned by the girls whose sickness was on
them. I have never seen Mr. Frank or anybody else have anybody down
at the office at any time drinking beer or doing anything of the sort. I
did not go down and see blood on second floor near dressing room.

MISS MARY PIRK, sworn for the Defendant.

I am one of the foreladies working at the National Pencil Co. I am
at the head of the polishing department. I have been there about five
years. I talked with Jim Conley Monday morning after the murder. I
accused him of the murder. He took his broom and walked right out of
the office and I have never seen him since. His character for truth and
for veracity is bad. I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I suspected Jim as early as Monday April 28th. I did not report it
to Mr. Frank then. I don’t know why I didn’t. I knew that Gantt and
Newt Lee and Mr. Frank had been arrested. Yes, I have never said any-
thing about it to anybody. I suspected Jim because he looked and acted
so different. I told Mr. Arnold and Mr. Rosser about it when they asked
me about it. That was after Jim was arrested. Jim acted very peculiar

but I thought best not to say anything about it. I knew the company was
anxious to get the murderer but I just didn’t mention it. I don’t know
why. I mentioned it to several of the girls standing around, Miss Den-
ham, Miss McCord, Mrs. Johns and several others. I accused Jim be-
fore I saw the blood at the ladies’ dressing room. It was all smeared
over with some kind of white stuff. It covered about two feet in area. I
mentioned it to the girls before Jim was arrested. I am not sure whether
it was before or after. It was after the coroner’s inquest. I have seen
several spots in the factory that looked like that spot many times. All
kinds of spots. I have seen spots before that looked like that. I don’t
exactly know when. My opinion is that Mr. Frank is a perfect gentle-
man. I always found him to be one in my dealings with him. I have
never heard any of the girls say anything about him. I have never heard
of a single thing immoral that he did do in those five years. I have never
heard of his going in the girls’ dressing room. I have never heard of his
slapping them as he would go by. I have never heard Mr. Frank talk to
Mary. I have never heard of the time Mr. Frank had her off in the cor-
ner there when she was trying to go back to work.

MISS IORA SMALL, sworn for the Defendant.

I worked on the fourth floor of the pencil factory for five years. I
saw Jim Conley on Tuesday. He was worrying me to get money from me
to buy a newspaper and then he would come and ask me for copies of the
paper before I would get through reading them. They were extras. He
would even get two of the same edition. He would take it and run over
there and sit on a box by the elevator and read it. He can read all right.
He had on an old Norfolk coat with a belt around it and it buttoned just
as tight around his neck as it could be. Before that he had gone around
there all open and loose and as slipshod as he could be. I could not tell
whether he was wearing a shirt or not because his coat fastened up so
tight. He told me Mr. Frank is just as innocent as I am and he says,
“God knows I was noways around this factory on Saturday.” I didn’t
see Mr. Frank talking to Jim anywhere in the factory on Tuesday. I
have never seen him talk to that nigger in my life. I have never been
down in Mr. Frank’s office after hours, drinking or doing anything wrong
at any time. I have known Conley for two years. His general reputa-
tion for truth and veracity is bad. I don’t know of any nigger on earth
that I would believe on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I would not believe Snowball on oath. I would not believe any nig-
ger. I got a fifty-cent raise in salary about four months ago. I have got
no raise since Mr. Frank has been locked up. It was before this murder
took place. I did not see Mrs. Carson talk to Jim on Tuesday or Wed-
nesday. She worked in one end of the building and I worked in the other.

I saw Mr. Frank and Miss Carson talking on business between eight and
nine o’clock on Tuesday. They stopped right in front of my machine.
Mr. Frank went down stairs and Miss Carson went on back to her work.
He used to come up there frequently. Conley was standing at the eleva-
tor. He was standing with his hand on a truck. He was not sleeping.
He must have seen me and Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank did not see Conley.
When Mr. Frank went down the steps Conley was still standing at the
elevator. Conley was asking me for newspapers all during the morning
every time they would holler” extra.” He would come to me. That was
after Mr. Frank had gone. That continued all day Tuesday and Wed-
nesday. I didn’t buy any extras on Monday. I bought four before noon
on Tuesday. The elevator makes a right smart noise. Shakes the whole
building. Any body in the world can tell it is running if the machinery is
not running; but you can’t notice it much unless you are right close to
the elevator. Some of us went back in the metal room one day to see if
we could see any blood spots. Mrs. Carson and Mrs. Thompson I think
were with us. Curiosity led us down there. We saw where the floor had
been chipped up. Saw something that looked like white face powder
around the chipped up place. Looked like some of the girls had pow-
dered their faces and spilt the powder. There were two or three spots,
some the size of a nickle and some the size of a quarter. The floor was
very dirty all over.

MISS JULIA FUSS, sworn for the Defendant.

I work on the fourth floor of the pencil factory. I have never known
anything wrong or immoral to be going on in Mr. Frank’s office. I talked
with Jim Conley Wednesday morning after the murder. He was sweep-
ing around there and asked me to see the newspaper. As he read it he
kinder grinned. He told me he believed Mr. Frank was just as innocent
as the angels from Heaven. I know his general character. He was never
known to tell the truth. I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw the dark red spots by the water cooler in the metal room where
they had chipped up something. Something white was dropped all over
it. The spots did not look like they had been smeared over. Looked like
a plain drop of blood. I think it was paint because there was paint used
there all the time. They asked me soon after the murder about the gen-
eral character of Frank. They asked me if I knew anything against his
character and I told them no. They generally spoke well of him. They
always spoke good of him. I have always heard him spoken of in the
highest terms. I have never heard him accused of any act of immorality
or familiarity with the girls in the factory. Jim Conley got two papers
from me on Tuesday and Wednesday. I bought them. Jim always
seemed to be kind of nervous or half drunk or something. He did not

arouse my suspicions until after he began to read the papers and grin
about them and comment on them. I didn’t see Mr. Frank speak to Con-
ley on Tuesday. Conley was not there. I am sure of that. Mr. Frank
came up there twice, once at 9 and again in 15 or 20 minutes. He came
around to see if everything was in good working order. He spoke to Miss
Carson and Mr. Darley and to a little boy. And then went on down stairs.
He came back in about fifteen or twenty minutes to see if everything was
going on alright. He spoke to Miss Carson again about the work. He
always came upstairs to see if everything was going on all right.

EMMA BEARD (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I am Mr. Schiff’s servant. On April 26th somebody called Mr. Schiff
on the telephone. I answered the telephone. It was about half past ten.
It sounded like a boy’s voice. It said, ” I Tell Mr. Schiff Mr. Frank wanted
him at the office.” Mr. Schiff was asleep at the time. I waked him up
and he said, “Tell Mr. Frank I will be there as soon as I can get dressed.”
And I repeated the message to the boy and told him what Mr. Schiff said.
Then Mr. Schiff went back to sleep again. The same voice called up Mr.
Schiff again about eleven o’clock. Said he wanted Mr. Schiff to come
down to the office. Mr. Schiff told me to tell him he would be there as soon
as he could get dressed and I told him what Mr. Schiff said.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been in Mr. Schiff’s house about seven years. On Saturdays
and holidays Mr. Schiff generally sleeps. Sometimes he goes to the fac-
tory when I wake him up. He never gets up unless I wake him. Mr.
Schiff told me sometime afterwards he was glad I did not wake him up
that day. I know it was eleven o’clock when he called up the second time,
because the clock was striking. They didn’t say what Mr. Frank wanted
him for.

ANNIE HIXON (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I am Mrs. Ursenbach’s servant. Mr. Frank called up on the tele-
phone about half past one on April 26th. I told him Mr. Ursenbach was
not in and he said “Tell Mr. Charlie I can’t go to the ball game this af-
ternoon.” I told Mrs. Ursenbach about it.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been working for Mrs. Ursenbach two years. Mr. Frank and
his wife came over to Mrs. Ursenbach’s on Sunday after we had break-
fast about nine o’clock. They come over there every Sunday. I didn’t
pay any attention to what they talked about that morning. They were
just laughing and talking like they always do. Yes, he laughed. They
were all laughing together. He wasn’t nervous or excited so far as I

could see. Nothing unusual about him. Don’t know what they were
laughing about.

J. C. MATTHEWS, sworn for the Defendant.
I was at Montag Brothers on April 26th. I saw Mr. Frank in the
office of Montag Bros., in the morning of that day. I couldn’t give you
the exact time. I work at Montag Bros.

ALONZO MANN, sworn for the Defendant.
I am office boy at the National Pencil Company. I began working
there April 1, 1913. I sit sometimes in the outer office and stand around
in the outer hall. I left the factory at half past eleven on April 26th.
When I left there Miss Hall, the stenographer from Montag ‘s, was in the
office with Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank told me to phone to Mr. Schiff and tell
him to come down. I telephoned him, but the girl answered the phone
and said he hadn’t got up yet. I telephoned once. I worked there two
Saturday afternoons of the weeks previous to the murder and stayed
there until half past three or four. Frank was always working during
that time. I never saw him bring any women into the factory and drink
with them. I have never seen Dalton there. On April 26th, I saw Hollo-
way, Irby, McCrary and Darley at the factory. I didn’t see Quinn. I
don’t remember seeing Corinthia Hall, Mrs. Freeman, Mrs. White, Gra-
ham, Tillander, or Wade Campbell I left there 11:30.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
When Mr. Frank came that morning, he went right on into the office,
and was at work there and stayed there. He went out once. Don’t know
how long he stayed out.

M. 0. NIX, sworn for the Defendant.
I am credit man for Montag Bros. and bookkeeper. I have charge of
the bookkeeping and documents and papers of the National Pencil Com-
pany. I am familiar with Mr. Frank’s handwriting. These financial
sheets beginning with May 22, 1912, and ending May 24, 1913 (Defend-
ant’s Exhibit 9), are in Mr. Frank’s handwriting. The eleven items be-
ginning with order No. 7187 running through No. 7197, appearing on
pages 56 and 57 of the house order book (Defendant’s Exhibit 12) are in
Mr. Frank’s handwriting. These entries below that are in Miss Hattie
Hall’s handwriting. I employed Miss Hattie Hall as my stenographer.
Mr. Montag and Mr. Frank had nothing to do with it. I raised her wages
on first of August, because I promised her that when she first came here.
These eleven requisition sheets (Defendant’s Exhibit, 25 to 35 inclusive)
are in Mr. Frank’s handwriting. I saw Mr. Frank on the morning of
April 26th, at Montag’s. He asked me to allow Miss Hattie Hall, my
stenographer, to go over to the factory to assist him as his stenographer

was away and he was piled up with work. And I told him I didn’t think
she should go until she finished Mr. Montag’s mail. He said something
then about her coming over in the afternoon, and I said I didn’t think she
ought to work over there as it wasn’t her work, and I told her not to do it,
but I told her if she got through with Mr. Montag’s mail she could go
over there that morning and help him, if she could assist him in anyway.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have never seen Frank write any of the documents which I say are
in his handwriting. I have seen him write. I don’t know their system of
doing work down at the factory. This order could not have been received
on April 22nd (Defendant’s Exhibit 27). The signature of H. G. Schiff
on the requisition sheets (Defendant’s Exhibits 25 to 35 inclusive) means
that he checked it when the order was filed. I have been with Montag
Bros. seven or eight years. I don’t know whose handwriting that is
(State’s Exhibit “K”). It looks like Mr. Frank’s, but it is not clear to
me. It is entirely different from his usual handwriting. It is different
from those I have identified positively as Mr. Frank’s, but it is figures on
those, and here it is in the form of a letter. There is no comparison
With a few capital letters you can’t get an idea of a man’s handwriting.
I am not positive that that is Mr. Frank’s handwriting. It might be.
You take this sheet here (requisition sheet) and you can’t get an idea of
a man’s handwriting from this, because everything is figures in here.
His writing might be entirely different if he sat down to write a letter.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I have never seen a letter written by Mr. Frank. The only writing
of his that I am familiar with are figures and things like that, pay rolls,
writings in requisitions and words that consist largely of abbreviations.

HARRY GOTTHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant.

I am a traveling salesman. I make two trips a year for the National
Pencil Company, from the first of February to the first of April, and
from the first of September to the fifteenth of October. I was at Montag
Bros. around ten o’clock on April 26th. I had come in from my trip on
the road and was writing up my orders. I had been away ten days. Mr.
Frank came in after I got there. I asked him about two important orders
as to their shipments and he replied that he couldn’t tell whether they
had been shipped or not, but that if I would return to the factory with
him he would give me the duplicate invoices and let me see for myself.
I replied that I would not have time to go back, as I had lots of orders.
He says: “If you can’t come now, come this afternoon.” And then he
walked in to Mr. Montag ‘s office, and as he went into the office he said:
“Come up now, or come up after dinner.”

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I saw Frank in his office one Saturday afternoon in the early part of
April about three o’clock. His wife was there doing some stenographic
work for him. Mr. Frank said Saturday morning, April 26th, that if I
couldn’t come to the factory in the morning that I should come in the af-
ternoon. I am sure of that conversation. Miss Hall heard part of it. I
had been in his office on previous Saturday afternoons. I never found
any of the doors locked. He was always working.

MRS. RAE FRANK, sworn for the Defendant.
I am the mother of Leo Frank. I live in Brooklyn. I lived in Texas
three years, where Leo was born. Mr. Moses Frank of Atlanta is my
husband’s brother. I saw him at Hotel McAlpin in New York City on
April 27th and April 28th. The letter that you hand me (Defendant’s
Exhibit 42) I saw on Monday, April 28th. It is my son’s handwriting.
This sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 43) is a sort of financial sheet. I had
lunch with Mr. Moses Frank at Hotel McAlpin on Monday, April 28th.
His wife read this letter to him in my presence and it was handed to me
afterwards. I also saw that sheet (Defendant’s Exhibit 43) but I did
not understand it. The handwriting on that envelope (Exhibit for De-
fendant, 44) is that of my son. The word “Yondiff” in the letter is He-
brew, meaning “Holiday.”

CROSS EXAMINATION.
The letter was folded exactly as it is now to the best of my recollec-
tion, just in that shape. Mr. Frank has no rich relatives in Brooklyn.
That is my son’s handwriting (State’s Exhibit “K”). It is a photo-
graphic copy. There was another paper included in the envelope which
that letter came in, some price list, but I didn’t look at it. It had num-
bers of pencils and prices on it. That letter was read in Hotel McAlpin,
in Mr. Moses Frank’s room. As to what relatives Mr. Frank has in
Brooklyn, my brother-in-law, Mr. Bennett, is a clerk at $18 a week. My
son-in-law Mr. Stearns is in the retail cigar business. As to what my
means of support are, we have about $20,000 out at interest, my husband
and I, at six per cent. We own the house we live in. We have a $6,000
mortgage on it. The house is worth about $10,000. My husband is doing
nothing. He is not in good health. Up to a year ago he was a traveling
salesman. These are the only relatives my son has in Brooklyn. Mr.
Moses Frank, my brother-in-law, generally spends a Sunday with us in
Brooklyn, before he sails for Europe. He spends Sunday with us in
Brooklyn and has dinner with us. He was not in Brooklyn on April 26th.
He is supposed to be very wealthy. I don’t know how much cash my hus-
band has in bank. A few hundred dollars ponsibly. My husband is 67
years old. He is broken down from hard work and in very poor health.
He was too unwell to come down here.

OSCAR PAPPENHEIMER, sworn for the Defendant.
I am in the furniture business. I am also a stockholder of the Na-
tional Pencil Company. I have been getting comparative sheets as to
the weekly business of the Company from Frank since March, 1910. Up
to the time the Post Office distributed mail on Sunday, I used to always
go to the Post Office to get my mail and always found this report on Sun-
day morning. When I quit going to the Post Office on Sundays I received
the reports in the first mail on Monday mornings. I have here the report
for the week ending April 24, 1913 (Defendant’s Exhibit 45). I got that
on Monday morning, April 28th. I also have here all the comparative
sheets received by me every week beginning January 18, 1912, up to
April 24, 1913 (Defendant’s Exhibit 46).

C. F. URSENBACH, sworn for the Defendant.
I married a sister of Mrs. Leo Frank. I phoned him on Friday and
asked him if he would go to the baseball game Saturday. He said he
didn’t know, he might go and would phone me later and let me know.
On Saturday when I got home about twenty minutes to two my cook told
me that Mr. Frank had phoned and told me that he wasn’t going to the
game. I saw him on Sunday, after the murder, at my house. I saw no
scratches, marks or bruises on him. He seemed to be a little disturbed
in mind. I saw him again that afternoon. He told us about the tragedy.
That evening we met him and his wife coming down Washington street
opposite the Hebrew Orphans’ Home. He gave me my rain coat right
there, which he had borrowed previously.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He and his wife and my wife and myself generally play cards Satur-
day evening. We were very much interested in bridge and played to-
gether often. Mr. and Mrs. Selig’s family usually played poker Satur-
day night. Mr. Frank and his wife never played poker. I am positive I
rang Mr. Frank up and asked him to go to the ball game. Mr. Frank
called it off about 1:30 on Saturday; when I got home and got the mes-
sage from my cook it was twenty to two. Mr. Frank borrowed my rain
coat at 4:30 on Sunday when it was raining, and I met him about 6 o’clock
on Washington Street, and he returned it. He never had that rain coat
until Sunday afternoon. I am positive that he did not have it on Satur-
day.

MRS. C. F. URSENBACH, sworn for the Defendant.
I am Mrs. Leo Frank’s sister. I received a telephone message for
Mr. Ursenbach from Mr. Frank through my cook on Saturday at half
past one. I saw no scratches, bruises, or marks on Mr. Frank on Sun-
day. He was nervous as one would have been under the circumstances.
He borrowed a rain coat from my husband that afternoon. The rain coat

was at our house on Saturday. It was there when my husband asked him
if he would wear it on Sunday. Mr. Frank did not have it on Saturday.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
On Sunday Mr. Frank when he was at the house told us he had been
called down town and that this little girl was murdered, and he told what
a horrible crime it was. He did not say who committed it. He said noth-
ing about employing a lawyer. He said nothing about how he slept the
night before. I think he told about being at the undertaker’s in the after-
noon. I did not hear him say anything about his visit to the undertaker’s
in the morning. He said he had been taken down to the factory in the
morning by the detectives. He said he had thought he heard the tele-
phone ringing in his sleep, the night before. He said when he saw the
corpse it was a grewsome sight. He said nothing about why he did not
stay in the room and look at the corpse longer or more carefully. He
said nothing about suspecting Newt Lee as being the guilty party. He
said he was sorry he let Gantt in the factory Saturday afternoon, be-
cause he mistrusted him, because he had not been honest. He did not
say he thought Newt Lee or Gantt had committed the crime. He said
nothing about the clock having been improperly punched. I was not in
the room the entire time. I had guests and I was out a good deal of the
time. I don’t know if he knew the name of Mary Phagan then or not. I
think he said she was choked. He didn’t say anything about a cord
around her neck but said she had a frill of her petticoat around her neck.
He mentioned he had paid her off the Saturday before. I don’t know
that he mentioned the name of the girl at all at that time. He said he
had discharged Gantt because he was not honest. I think he said Newt
Lee was a good fellow as much as he knew about him. On Monday night
over at Selig’s Mr. Frank was there and we had a conversation on the
subject. He spoke of having a detective at the house in the morning,
that the detectives thought that he had done it and how strange it was
that they should say so. He didn’t say that he suspected anybody. He
seemed to be calm as usual that night. He never mentioned suspecting
anybody of the crime. On Monday night he said he had been suspected
in the morning by the detectives. That night he sat on the couch and
patted his foot. That was the only indication of nervousness I saw. Mr.
Frank did not have Mr. Ursenbach’s rain coat on Saturday. It was in
our house all day Saturday and until my husband asked him Sunday if
he would wear it.

MRS. A. E. MARCUS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a sister of Mrs. Leo Frank. I played cards Saturday night at
Mrs. Selig’s. Mr. Frank was there sitting out in the hall reading, and
Mrs. Frank was going in and out of the room. Mr. Frank went to bed
after ten o’clock. I noticed nothing unusual about him, no bruises,
marks or signs.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

He came in one time and told me something funny about a baseball
joke. We were still playing when he went to bed.

MRS. M. MARCUS, sworn for the Defendant.

I am no relation of Mr. or Mrs. Frank. I saw Mr. Frank at half past
eight or a quarter to nine in the evening on April 26th, at Mrs. Selig’s
residence. We played cards there. Mr. Frank opened the door for us.
He stayed in the hall reading. We played cards in the dining room. He
went to bed between ten and half after ten. He appeared as natural as
usual. I left the house about twelve o’clock.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

We had a game of cards every Saturday afternoon at somebody
else’s house.

M. J. GOLDSTEIN, sworn for the Defendant.
I played cards Saturday night, April 26th, at Mrs. Selig’s house. I
got there about 8:15. We played in the dining room. Mr. Frank was sit-
ting in the hall. There was nothing unusual about him, no nervousness
or anxiety. There was nothing that attracted our attention. I have
never known Mr. or Mrs. Frank to play poker. I should say he went to
bed about 10:30. His wife followed about fifteen minutes afterwards.
I never noticed any marks or bruises about his person.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He came in while we were playing to tell us of some joke he had read,
and we asked him to desist as it was distracting us from the game. Frank
was reading a magazine which caused him considerable merriment and
laughter.

I. STRAUSS, sworn for the Defendant.
I was at the home of Mrs. Selig, Saturday night, playing cards. I
got there about 10:30. Mr. Frank let me in. While we played he was
sitting in the hall reading. I could see him through the door. There was
nothing unusual about him. He went to bed immediately after I got
there. His wife went to bed soon afterwards.

MRS. EMIL SELIG, recalled for the Defendant.
(Witness denies categorically that any of the contents of Minola
McKnight’s affidavit (State’s Exhibit “J”) are true). I have never
raised Minola’s wages one penny since she has been with me.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I didn’t see Albert McKnight at my house on Saturday. He has
been to the house two or three times. I was in bed when Mr. and Mrs.
Frank went down stairs Sunday morning in response to the ringing of
the telephone. Mr. Frank got home about eleven o’clock Sunday morn-
ing and then ate his breakfast. He and his wife went out together. Min-
ola was paid $3.50 a week. I advanced her a week’s wages. I don’t know
what week that was. I didn’t pay her anything the next week. The first
week I gave her $5.00 and told her to give me the change. She brought
$1.00 the next morning, and told me she kept 50 cents which I deducted
the next week. I think Mrs. Frank gave her a hat. I don’t know when
that was. Mrs. Frank has never given her any money to my knowledge.

SIGMUND MONTAG, sworn for the Defendant.
I am engaged in manufacturing stationery. I am treasurer of the
National Pencil Company. The company receives its mail at my office,
which is two blocks from the pencil factory. Frank comes to my office
every day of the year to get the mail and instructions with regard to or-
ders and the business of the factory. He came to my office on April 26th,
about ten o’clock and stayed about an hour. He talked to me, my stenog-
rapher, Miss Hattie Hall, and Mr. Gottheimer, one of the salesman. Up
to about a year ago I went to the factory almost every Saturday after-
noon. Mr. Frank would always be working at his desk on the financial
sheet. The telephone in my house is 20 feet from my bed. I did not hear
it ring Sunday morning. My wife was aroused by its ringing and she
waked me. The man at the other end asked me if I could identify a girl
that was killed in the basement of the pencil factory. I referred him to
Mr. Darley who was most familiar with the help in the factory. After
breakfast Mr. Frank came to my house. It was a raw, chilly morning.
He was no more nervous than we were about the murder when we saw
him that morning. I was very much agitated and trembled. My wife
was very nervous and commenced to cry. I saw no marks, scratches or
discolorations of any sort on his face, and there were no spots on his
clothing. I went to the factory that morning and made a general exam-
ination, including the metal room. We saw nothing on the floor. Frank
was very much nervous and agitated when he told us about the occur-
rence. We have a great many accidents in the metal room. They would
be brought to the front of the building into the office. I heard that about
nine o’clock Monday morning Mr. Frank had been taken to police head-
quarters. I knew that he had a very limited acquaintance there and I
therefore telephoned for Mr. Herbert Haas, my personal counsel and
counsel for the pencil company to go down there. Mr. Haas answered
that he didn’t like to leave home that morning, that his wife was expect-
ing a new arrival, so I sent my automobile after him. Mr. Haas came
back and said he was refused admittance to Mr. Frank at the station
house, and said he was going to telephone Mr. Rosser. He then tele-

phoned for Mr. Rosser. That was between half past ten and eleven. Mr.
Rosser came down to the station house thirty or forty minutes later. I
saw Mr. Rosser go upstairs. About forty minutes later Mr. Black and
Mr. Haas left police headquarters with Mr. Frank. I always received
the financial sheet on Monday morning. Mr. Frank would bring them
over in envelopes. I saw the financial sheet of April 24 (Defendant’s
Exhibit 2) on Monday afternoon about three o’clock. That was after
Mr. Schiff called me over the telephone and asked me if I would sanction
the employment of the Pinkertons to ferret out this crime, and I told Mr.
Schiff to go ahead. I told him and Mr. Darley to help the authorities all
in their power to find out the murderer, whoever he might be.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank was well acquainted with our attorney, Mr. Haas. He
was president of the B’nai B ‘rith. The B’nai B’rith has between four
or five hundred members, I should say. When I say that Mr. Frank had
a limited acquaintance, I meant that the people around police headquar-
ters did not know Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank did not ask for an attorney.
Mr. Schiff told me that Mr. Frank had spoken to him about employing
the Pinkertons. Mr. Frank was very nervous when he was at my house
Sunday morning. He had already been to the undertaker’s. He told me
they had taken him into a dark room and flashed on a light, and he said
he saw the little girl there. He described how she looked. He said her
face was scratched and her eye was discolored, and she seemed to have a
gash in her head. Her mouth was full of sawdust and he described her
in a general way. He did not call my attention to his being nervous. He
did not say anything to me about an attorney or having been to police
headquarters. I don’t know whether he had been to police headquarters
or not. I authorized the employment of the Pinkertons on Monday. I
had not then employed counsel. My sending Mr. Herbert Haas to see
Mr. Frank was not employing counsel. I made no trade with Mr. Haas.
Don’t know who is paying his fee. I have not contributed anything to-
wards it, nor has the Pencil Company. The Pencil Company is employ-
ing the Pinkertons. As to whether they have been paid yet or not, they
haven’t requested their pay. They have sent bills two or three times. I
received the reports from the Pinkertons. They came sometimes every
day and then sometimes they didn’t for a few days. I got the report
about finding the big stick and the pay envelope. I did not request the
Pinkertons to keep the finding of the stick and the envelope from the
police and authorities. We have little accidents almost every two weeks
in the factory. There was one big accident about a year ago, a machin-
ist, Gilbert, had his head bursted open in the metal department. That
was about a year ago. The insurance company ordered us to clean up
the factory about a week after Mary Phagan’s death.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Superintendent Pierce, of the Pinkertons, told me that his reports
would be furnished to the police before they came to me.

TRUMAN McCRARY, (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I am a drayman on the streets of Atlanta. I work for the National
Pencil Company. I have hauled for them. I have drayed for them most
every Saturday for the past three years. I would work on Saturday
afternoons until half past three and sometimes as late as five. I would
be sometimes there so late the shipping clerk would be gone. I have
never found the front door locked on a Saturday afternoon. I have
never seen Jim Conley watching there Saturday afternoon. I have never
seen him guarding the door. I have never seen him around the factdry
at all Saturday afternoon. I have never found the doors to Mr. Frank’s
inner or outer office locked. Both doors have glass windows in them.
Anybody could see through them. I have sometimes found Mr. Schiff
working there with Mr. Frank on Saturday afternoon. I did not see Jim
Conley at the factory April 26th. I did not tell him to go down in the
elevator shaft and ease his bowels. I went into Mr. Frank’s office about
twelve o’clock on April 26th. Mr. Frank was there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I did not haul any for the pencil factory on April 26th. I took a sack
of hay there. That was about 7:30. I didn’t see Mr. Frank upstairs
that time. I did not see Jim Conley at all that day. It may have been as
late as 8:30 that I reached the factory that day. Mr. Frank was not
there. I was paid sometime before 12 o’clock that day. The boxes are
piled around in there pretty high around the elevator going down there.
There are some pretty large ones, four or five feet high. They are piled
around the stairway. I have never seen them use that door to the Clarke
Woodenware space. I have used it once to haul out a lot of trash. No I
have never seen Jim Conley sweeping up there Saturday afternoon.
There was one Saturday afternoon that I didn’t go up there. That was
since Christmas. I think it was in April. I went up there every after-
noon in January.

D. J. NIX, sworn for the Defendant.
I was office boy at the pencil factory from April, 1912, to October,
1912. I worked there every other Saturday until the first of September,
and then every Saturday thereafter. I am 19 years old. Before Sep-
tember 1, 1 worked on Saturdays until between four and six o’clock. On
Saturdays after September 1, 1 worked until between 5:30 and 6. I have
never missed any days while I have been at the factory. On Saturday
afternoons, Mr. Frank and Mr. Schiff would be there working. I would

stay in the outer office. I never left the factory on Saturday afternoon.
I have never known Mr. Frank to have any women in his office drinking
or doing anything else.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never stayed there every Saturday afternoon in the summer
months. Every other Saturday afternoon then I got off at one o’clock.
No, I don’t know anything about Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank and others
taking women down the alley on Forsyth Street and around the back
door. He did not have any women in the factory when I was there, and
I worked every Saturday after the first of September until the first of
October. In the summer I worked every other Saturday afternoon.

FRANK PAYNE, sworn for the Defendant.
I was office boy last Thanksgiving day at the pencil factory. It was
snowing that day. I am 16 years old. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank were
working there in the office that day. Mr. Schiff sent me up on the fourth
floor to straighten the boxes up. Jim Conley was there sweeping. He
left the factory about 10:20. I left about 11. He had finished his work.
I went by the office to get my coat. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank were still
working. When I left I did not see Conley anywhere about the door.
For two months I worked at the factory on Saturday afternoons until
3:30 or four. Mr. Schiff and Mr. Frank would always be working in the
office. I have never known him to have any women in there, or see any
drinking going on. I would go to dinner about 1 or 2 o’clock. Mr. Frank
would go about 12:30 to one and get back about three. I would stay in
the inner office all the time. Mr. Schiff sat right across from me in the
inner office. I would go to Montag’s and stay about ten or fifteen minutes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I quit work at the factory seven or eight months ago to get a better
job. Mr. Schiff was with Mr. Frank every Saturday afternoon I was
there. I never went back at nights. I have never seen any beer bottles
around there. I don’t know whether Jim Conley came back after he left
there at 10:30 on Thanksgiving Day. I saw him go down the stairs. I
did not look for him as I went down. I did not notice him.

PHILLIP CHAMBERS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am 15 years old. I started working for them December 12, 1912,
as office boy, at the pencil factory. I left there March 29, 1913. I stayed
in the outer office. On Saturdays I stayed until 4:30 and sometimes un-
til 5 o’clock. I never left before 4:30 on Saturdays. I would go to dinner
about 1:30 and get back at 2. Sometimes on Saturdays I would be sent
to Montag’s for 15 minutes, to get the mail. I would sometimes go out

to the Bell Street plant to get the pay roll there. I would get back at 12
o’clock. Mr. Frank never did have any women in there. I never
saw any drinking there. I have never seen Dalton come in there. I have
seen Jim Conley sweeping there Saturday afternoon. Snowball would
be in there once in a while. I have never known the front door to be
locked on Saturday afternoon. After a certain time all the sweepers,
including Conley and Snowball, had to leave the factory at noon. Mr.
Darley gave them orders they could not sweep in the afternoon. After
that I never saw any of them around there Saturday afternoon. I have
never seen anybody watching the door on any Saturday that I was there,
or any other day. I have seen Mr. Frank’s wife come to his office once.
Mr. Schiff would be helping him on some of the Saturdays that I would
be there. I have never seen Mr. Frank familiar with any of the women
in the factory. I have never seen him talk to Mary Phagan at all.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Mr. Frank and I were good friends, just like a boss ought to be to
me. I don’t know anything about Mr. Frank’s telling Conley to come
around and not let Mr. Darley see him.

GODFREY WEINKAUF, sworn for the Defendant.
I am superintendent of the Pencil Company’s lead plant. Beginning
with July, 1912, up until the first week in January, 1913, I visited the of-
fice of the pencil factory every other Saturday, between three and five
o’clock. I would stay there about two hours. I would find Mr. Hollo-
‘way, Mr. Frank and Mr. Schiff there. I never saw any women in the
office there.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I never saw Jim Conley there at the factory on Saturday afternoon.
I am sure I saw Holloway there on Saturday afternoon.

CHARLIE LEE, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a machinist at the pencil factory. I remember an accident to
Duffy in the metal room. His finger was hurt on the eyelet machine,
about October 4, 1912. It bled freely and the blood spouted out. There
was a lot of the blood on the floor. He went down the hall to the office, by
the ladies’ dressing room. There was blood at that point. Gilbert also
got hurt in the metal room last year. He was bandaged in the office also.
In going from the metal room to the office, you go right by the steps.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I have been with the company two years and four months. Two
weeks ago my wages were raised 2.5 cents an hour. Mr. Darley raised
them. I have not talked to anybody about what I was going to swear in
this case. I did not see Gilbert get hurt up there. I saw him after he
was dressed. Duffy was hurt in the metal room on the machine opposite
Mary Phagan’s machine. The pencil company took a written statement
from me, signed by me, to keep the fellow from suing the company. I
saw my signature this morning. I have never told you I signed that
statement. The blood was streaming from his finger and dropped all
over the floor. The whole floor was bloody. He came out down the hall
to the office. He stopped about in front of the dressing room, about three
steps from the water cooler and asked me which office to go in. The blood
was streaming from his finger while he was standing there, about eight
or ten seconds. It dropped just in one place, holding his hand like this.
It wasn’t cleaned up, they only sweep the floor once a week, that’s all the
cleaning it gets. I never noticed it after that time. I have never taken
any notice whether you can see that blood there now. Duffy was cut
right near where those chips were taken up on the floor. It might have
been the same place. It was right near there. I wouldn’t say it was the
same spot or not.

ARTHUR PRIDE (c), sworn for the Defendant.
I worked on the second floor of the factory. On Saturdays I work all
over the factory, doing anything that is necessary. Beginning with July
of last year I have not missed a single Saturday afternoon at the factory.
I would work until about half past four. I have never seen any women
come up there and see Mr. Frank, or any drinking going on there, or seen
Jim Conley sitting and watching the door. The employees used the back
stairs leading from the metal room to the third floor. You can hear the
elevator running if the machinery is not running. It makes a roaring
noise and you can hear it on any floor. The motor makes a noise, and
you can see the wheels moving on the fourth floor. I know Jim Conley’s
general character for truth and veracity; it is bad. I would not believe
him on oath. I wouldn’t believe him on oath, because him and his whole
family lied to me.
CROSS EXAMINATION.

I never associated with Jim. No, I ain’t a high-class nigger, but I
am a different grade from him. He had three or four watches and I
bought one and I made him show me a receipt marked paid in full, and
he sold me the watch and after that they come and got him to put him in
jail about it, and then his whole family came and said if I would give the
watch back, that they would pay the debt, and I gave the watch back and
after they had released him, the family just said they done that to get the
watch and they were done with it, and there wasn’t any way for me to get
it, but he swore to me it was paid in full. I haven’t heard anything else
said against him. I never paid any special attention to the elevator dur-
ing business hours, but you could hear it all the time when the factory

wasn’t running. It didn’t shake the building. You could hear the eleva-
tor when the wind blows. You could hear the elevator if the machinery
wasn’t running even if they are hammering.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I haven’t missed a single day in five years, that I have been working
with the factory. Yes, I say that Jim Conley forged a receipt on me for
a watch. I let him have $4.50 on it, and I never got my money back.

DAISY HOPKINS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a married woman. I worked in the factory from October, 1911,
to June 1, 1912. I worked in the packing department on the second floor.
Mr. Frank never spoke to me when he would pass. I never did speak to
him. I’ve never been in his office drinking beer, coca-cola, or anything
else. I know Dalton when I see him. I never visited the factory with
him. I never have been with him until I went to his house to see Mrs.
Taylor, who lived with him then. That was the only place I have ever
seen him. I never have been to the factory on Saturday or any other day.
I never introduced him to Mr. Frank. There isn’t a word of truth in
that. I have never gone down in the basement with this fellow Dalton.
I don’t even know where the basement is at all. I have never been any-
where in the factory, except at my work.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I have never been in jail. Mr. W. M. Smith got me out of jail. Some-
body told a tale on me, that’s why I was put in jail. I don’t know what
they charged me with; they accused me of fornication.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I never was tried. I never had to pay anything except my lawyer’s
fee, which I paid to Mr. Win. Smith. I never was taken to court.

MISS LAURA ATKINSON, sworn for the Defendant.
I have been in Mr. Dalton’s company three times. I never met him
at the Busy Bee Cafe. I have never walked with him to or from the pen-
cil company. I have never walked home with him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I worked at the National Pencil factory two days last month. I have
known Mr. Dalton six months. I have been in his company three times.
I did not know Daisy Hopkins.
MRS. MINNIE SMITH, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the pencil factory. I do not know C. B. Dalton. I live at

148 S. Forsyth Street. I have never met Dalton or walked home with
him. I don’t know the man. I know Mr. Frank. I have spoken to him
six times in the four years and a half that I worked there.

CROSS EXAMINATION WAIVED.

V. S. Cooper, W. T. Mitchell, 0. A. Nix, Samuel Craig, B. L. Patter-
son, Robert Craig, Ed Craig, T. L. Ambrose, J. P. Bird, J. H. Patrick and
I. M. Hamilton. All sworn for the defendant. Testified that they lived
in Gwinnett or Walton county; that they used to know C. B. Dalton be-
fore he left Monroe in Walton county; that his general character for
truth and veracity is bad, and that they would not believe him on oath.

R. L. BAUER, sworn for the Defendant.
During the summer of 1909 and 1910, I worked at the National Pen-
cil Company on Saturdays. Since that time I have worked off and on at
the factory on Saturdays doing extra work. I have also been up to the
office Saturday afternoons, frequently during the past twelve months. I
was there while Mr. Schiff was off on his trip. I was up at the office on
the Saturday afternoon before Mr. Schiff went away. Mr. Holloway,
Mr. Schiff, Mr. Frank and the office boy were there. I have never seen
any women in Mr. Frank’s office on the Saturdays I have been there.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I have always found Mr. Schiff there on Saturday afternoons with
the exception of the time when he was off on his trip during January and
February. The only specific Saturday afternoons that I remember being
at the factory, was the Saturdays during the month of January, 1913,
when Mr. Schiff was off on the road. Got to the factory at three o’clock
on the first Saturday in January. I went through the front door of the
factory. It was unlocked and the door was open. Mr. Holloway was on
the second floor in his usual place. Mr. Frank was in his office sitting at
his desk. I didn’t see any stenographer. I stayed there until nearly four
o’clock. I have been to the factory on an average of two Saturdays every
month. On the second Saturday in January, I got to the factory at three
o’clock. Mr. Frank, Mr. Holloway and the office boy were there. The
front door was open. The inside door was open. Mr. Frank was at his
desk, in the inside office. I stayed there about a half or three quarters of
an hour, about half past three or a quarter to four. I talked to Mr. Frank
about ten minutes, and the rest of the time I just noticed things around
the office. I saw Mr. Frank at the factory the third Saturday in January
I was there. I don’t know who else was there. I went to inquire about
Mr. Schiff who was in the Ohio flood. Mr. Frank was in his office. I re-
member seeing Mr. Frank in his office on the fourth Saturday in Janu-
ary I called there. He was working in his office. I don’t remember see-
ing anybody else there.

GORDON BAILEY, (c) sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the factory. I am sometimes called” Snowball.” I never
saw Jim Conley talk to Mr. Frank the Friday before the murder. I have
never, at any time, heard Mr. Frank ask Conley to come back on any Sat-
urday. I have never seen Mr. Frank bring in any women into the fac-
tory. I have never seen Jim Conley guarding or watching the door. I
have seen Jim take newspapers and look at it, but I don’t know if he read
them or not. I have seen him have papers at the station house like he
was reading them.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was arrested Monday, April 28th, about half past nine. I saw Mr.
Frank before I was arrested. He was on the second floor.

HENRY SMITH, sworn for the Defendant.
I work at the pencil factory in the metal department. I work with
Barrett. He has talked to me about the reward offered in this case. He
said it was $4,300, and he thought if anybody was to get it, he was to get
it, because he found the blood and hair, and he said he ought to get the
first hook at it. He said it six or seven different times.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
He would come out of the room counting it off on his hands. He did
that 2 or 3 times and sort of laughed, counting that imaginary money.

MILTON KLEIN, sworn for the Defendant.
I saw Mr. Frank last Thanksgiving evening at a dance given by the
B’nai B’rith at the Hebrew Orphans’ Home. I also saw him that same
afternoon between half past four and six o’clock. The dance lasted from
eight to half past eleven. Mr. Frank helped Mr. Copelan and myself
give the dance. We were the committee in charge.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was down at the jail to see Mr. Frank when the detectives brought
Conley down there. I sent word down that Mr. Frank didn’t care to see
Conley, that he didn’t care to see anyone at that time. He knew that Con-
ley was there. I was the spokesman for Mr. Frank. He wouldn’t see
any of the detectives either. Mr. Frank said that he would see Conley
only with the consent of his attorney, Mr. Rosser. He said for them to
send and get Mr. Rosser. Frank’s manner was perfectly natural. He
considered Conley in the same light that he considered any of the city
detectives. He said he would not see any of the city detectives, or Mr.
Scott without the consent of Mr. Rosser. He considered Scott as work-
ing for the city. He included Scott with the rest of the detectives. Mr.

Frank looked very much disappointed because the grand jury had just
indicted him when he had expected to be cleared. Mr. Frank has a great
many friends who constantly visited him in jail.

NATHAN COPLAN, sworn for the Defendant.
I remember last Thanksgiving Day was a very disagreeable day. I
don’t remember whether it snowed. The B’nai B ‘rith is a charitable or-
ganization here composed of young men. They gave a dance out at the
Jewish Orphans’ Home Thanksgiving evening. Mr. Frank had charge
of it. Mr. Frank and his wife were there. I got there about 8 o’clock.
They were there at that time. They stayed there until about 10 o’clock.
JOE STELKER, sworn for the Defendant.
I have got charge of the varnishing department at the pencil fac-
tory; about sixty people work under me. I saw the spot that Mr. Barrett
claimed he had found in front of the young ladies’ dressing room. It
looked like some one had some coloring in a bottle and splashed it on the
floor. Chief Beavers asked me to find out whether it was varnish or not.
I saw the white stuff on it. It looked like a composition they use on the
eyelet machine or face powder. They carry that stuff around in buckets
in the metal room. It gets spilled on the floor and looks something like
face powder. The spots look like some varnish. The floor in the metal
room is swept once a week. It is never washed. The spots look as if it
had been made three days before. I would not have noticed it had not
my attention been called to it. The floor is a greasy one. The white stuff
looked like it come from the eyelet machine. The alleged blood spots
could have been made with a transparent red varnish. If it is that kind
of varnish it will soak in and look something like blood. If it is pigment
it will show up right red. They use this kind of varnish in bottles in the
metal room. I tried a stain on the floor there and it looked just like that
spot that Barrett found. Everybody was nervous and shaky on Monday.
The varnish I experimented with soaked in the floor and looked the same
as the blood spot. I have seen paint all over the floor, it splashes out of
the bucket and they just sweep it up. I was at the undertaker’s Sunday
afternoon at two o ‘clock when Frank was there. Mr. Quinn, Mr. Ziganke,
Mr. Darley and Mr. Schiff were there. I looked at the body with Mr.
Ziganke. No one else was present. I have known Jim Conley about two
years. His general character for truth and veracity is very bad, there-
fore, I would not believe him on oath.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
Frank came from Brooklyn. I am no kin to Mr. Frank or any of his
people. I do not belong to his society. I have never heard anything said
against Conley, except since Frank was indicted. I also heard he was in
the chaingang. I saw him in the chaingang on Forsyth Street. I saw
him with shackles on. I don’t know what he was sent up for. I sent him

out for 25 cents worth of beer and he filled it half full of water and he de-
nied doing it. I could tell it was filled up by the taste of it. I know he
did it because he had a suspicious look about him. That was last sum-
mer. Ziganke helped me drink beer. That’s about all the drinking I
have ever seen there. At the undertaker’s Mr. Frank had on a dark suit
of clothes. He had no raincoat with him. We went to the undertaker’s
for the purpose of seeing the body. Mr. Frank did not ask me to meet
him there. I went in to view the body and then came out. Mr. Frank
came there ten minutes after we got there. While we were in there Mr.
Frank had come and was speaking to Mr. Darley. I don’t know how long
I was sitting there. I was too nervous to know. I felt nauseated and
nervous before I went in to see the body. When I went in to view the
body Mr. Frank was standing outside talking with Mr. Schiff and Mr.
Darley. Mr. Frank went in to view the body later on, ten or twenty or
thirty minutes later. I was sitting down waiting for the rest of the men
while he went there. Ziganke was sitting with me. I don’t know whether
Mr. Frank went in the room to see the body or not. Mr. Frank was ner-
vous when he got there, and when he came out just the same. Just the
same expression he has got on his face now. The room was full of peo-
ple when Mr. Frank went in there. I went down to the undertaker’s to
see who was murdered. I did not know that she had already been iden-
tified as Mary Phagan. I only heard when I got to the undertaker’s. I
didn’t see the impress of the cord on the neck. I just took one look and
then came right out again. I saw the discoloration of the eye and that
bruise and I sort of felt sick and I walked right out.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
I am a German and I am accustomed to drinking my beer. I have
never trusted Jim Conley after he put water in my beer.
HARLEE BRANCH, sworn for the Defendant.
I work for the Atlanta Journal. I had an interview with Jim Con-
ley on two occasions. On May 31st, he told me he didn’t see the purse of
this little girl. He said that it took about thirty-five minutes after going
upstairs until he got out of the factory. He said he finished about 1:30
and then went out. He said that Lemmie Quinn got into the factory
about 12 o’clock and remained about 8 or 9 minutes.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I am sure about his saying he saw Lemmie Quinn at the factory at
that interview. He was in jail when I had that interview. It was a few
days after he went through the factory. As to Conley’s movements at
the factory, I was there a few minutes after twelve. Conley arrived there
about 12:10 or 12:15. The detectives told him what he was there for.
After a few minutes brief conversation, Conley started telling his story.
When he reached the point at the rear left side of the factory, he de-

scribed the position of the body, and described what he did with the body,
and how Mr. Frank helped him. He enacted the whole story and talking
all the time. After he had reached the point of disposing of the body, and
writing the notes, I found it was time for me to go back to the office and I
left. Conley began the enactment of the story a few minutes after he got
there, which was a quarter past twelve, and he went through very rap-
idly. We had to sort of trot to keep behind him. I left the factory at
1:10. In estimating the time Conley devoted to acting and how much to
telling the story would be a guess. There is no way of disassociating the
time between the two. I didn’t attempt to do that. It would be a pure
guess because I see no way of dividing the time. I should say that per-
haps he was talking and not acting for about fifteen minutes. Of course
he was talking all the time that he was acting. I did not say that I
thought he was talking half of the time.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
In going through his performance he walked very rapidly. We were
almost on a trot behind him. I was at the factory fifty minutes while he
enacted his story. I left him after he had written one note in Mr. Frank’s
office. He wrote the note very rapidly. It took him about two minutes.
He didn’t stay in the wardrobe over a minute. He just got in, closed the
door and got right out. In approximating the time of his performance I
gave a minute to his staying in the wardrobe and two minutes to writing
the one note. If you add six minutes to writing the other notes and eight
minutes to the time he said he stayed in the wardrobe, that would be four-
teen minutes added to the fifty minutes, which would be sixty-four min-
utes for the time of the performance. If you deduct the fifteen minutes
which I say he was taking, would leave forty minutes net which he took
to enact the story.
RE-GROSS EXAMINATION.
That is just an estimate. The only time I had was the time I left my
office and the time I got back. Conley got to the factory at 12:15 and I
left there between 1:05 and 1:10. I saw Conley pick up a paper in the
newspaper room and he looked like he was reading it. It had pictures
on the front page and I judge he looked at them first, because afterwards
he folded it. He had several minutes while I was telephoning.

JOHN M. MINAR, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a newspaper reporter for the “Atlanta Georgian.” I visited
George Epps Sunday night, April 27th. I went there to ask him and his
sister when was the last time either of them had seen Mary Phagan.
George Epps and sister were both present. I asked them who had seen
Mary Phagan last, and the little girl Epps said she had seen her on the
previous Thursday. George Epps was standing right there and he said
nothing about having seen her Thursday. He said he knew the girl, that

he had ridden to town with her in the mornings occasionally when she
went to work. He said nothing as to having seen the girl on Saturday
and coming in on the car with her. I directed my questions to both the
children.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I was not seeking evidence for the defendant. There was no defend-
ant at that time. This was on Sunday, the day the body was found. I
have been working under the direction of Mr. Clofein, city editor. Clo-
fein visited Frank in jail. At that time Mr. Frank had not been men-
tioned in connection with the case at all. At the time of the interview
with the little girl and the little boy they were both in the room with their
father. Their father took me out there.
W. D. McWORTH, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a Pinkerton detective. I worked for fifteen days on the Frank
case. For three days I took statements from the factory employees and
on May 15th, I made a thorough search of the ground floor. I found near
the front door on the ground floor, stains that might or might not have
been blood. All the radiators in the factory had trash, dirt and rubbish
behind them. Behind one of the radiators near the Clark Woodenware
place, where the partition is, I found much trash, behind the trap door,
up against the partition, and on top of the radiator were pipes and about
eight or nine length of that rope that they tie pencils with. One length-
the only one that came loose-was pulled straight away from the radia-
tor and I saw signs of it having been cut recently with a sharp knife.
Among the trash I found papers there dated February, 1911. That rub-
bish had been there some time, because the rest of the floor around there
was clean. About six or eight inches from the left side of the radiator,
there was a small pile of dirt and sweepings. When I took Mr. Whitfield,
another Pinkerton detective, back there to show him the spots I had
found, we looked behind the radiator and as I was sticking my hand
around the dust and dirt, I discovered a pay envelope. (Defendant’s
Exhibit 47). It was covered with granulated dust. I opened it and
looked at it and saw the number 186 there. And the first initials of the
name an “M” and a”P.” I handed it to Whitfield and said: “Take it
to the door and see what it is.” It was pretty dark in there. Right in
the same corner, I also found a club (Defendant’s Exhibit 48). It was
standing up on the doorway with some iron pipes. The club is used by
the drayman as a roller to roll boxes and barrels on. The iron pipes
there were used for the same purpose. The stains on the club were either
paint or blood, I don’t know which. I found this little stick back of the
front door. (State’s Exhibit “L”).
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I saw the spots in front of the ladies’ dressing room. It just looked
as if the floor had been stained. There are half a dozen places. There

was no difference in appearance between the dark spots by the water
cooler and the other spot in the metal room. I did not make any special
search on the office floor for a pay envelope. I was looking for the mesh
bag under the instructions of Mr. Scott. Mr. Whitfield joined me in the
search. In my report to the Pinkertons I reported that I found what I
took to be blood stains around the trap door. They were dark discolora-
tions. There were seven of them, averaging about seven inches in diam-
eter. The gas was turned on and I used matches in examining them. I
had found the stains first and while Mr. Whitfield and I were back there
looking behind the radiator, we found the cord and twine about the ra-
diator. Whitfield was examining stains when I picked up envelope which
was all rolled up. I found envelope about 3 o’clock on May 15th, within
8 or 10 inches of the trap door. The name was written in lead pencil. So
far as I know the envelope has not been changed any since I saw it last.
I did not see any “5″ on the envelope. We went out to see Mr. and Mrs.
Coleman on May 17th, and showed them the envelope. There was no
“5″ on it at that time. There was no conversation about any five. I had
talked to Mr. Schiff before I saw Mr. Coleman. In my report I stated
that the stains might have been blood as well as stains. I reported the
finding of this club to the police 17 hours after finding it. And within
four hours thereafter, I had a conference with them about it. I never
showed that whip to anybody (State’s Exhibit “L”). I didn’t show it
to Mr. Black. I showed him the club and the envelope. I turned them
over to Mr. Pierce, the superintendent of our agency. I don’t know
where he is, nor Whitfield either.

JOHN FINLEY, sworn for the Defendant.
I was formerly master machinist and assistant superintendent of
the pencil factory. I have known Mr. Frank about five years. His char-
acter was good.

CROSS EXAMINATION.
I am now superintendent for Dittler Bros. They are not related to
the Franks. I left the pencil company about three years ago. I have
never heard anything about women going up in the factory after work
hours. Mr. Frank and I usually left together about six o’clock. Mr.
Frank went to lunch usually about one o’clock. I would sometimes work
at the factory all Saturday afternoon. I did that most of the time that I
was there. The elevator box was kept closed when I was there. I gen-
erally kept one key and we kept one key in the office. The rule was to
lock it and keep one key in the office. It has been left unlocked. The ele-
vator doesn’t make much noise that I know of. It doesn’t shake the
building; not when I was there. The wheels on the top floor are closed
in on the fourth floor. You might be able to see them on the fourth floor
if you stand on the west side of the elevator. They didn’t make any
noise. The power box don’t make any noise.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
The motor makes a tremendous noise. You can hear it and the
shafting anywhere in the building.

A. D. GREENFIELD, sworn for the Defendant.
I am one of the owners of the building occupied by the Pencil Com-
pany on Forsyth Street. I have owned it since 1900. When we bought
the building it was occupied by Montag Bros. They used it as a manu-
facturing plant. The Clarke Woodenware Company sub-leased part of
the first floor from Montag Bros. They used the front door on Montag
Bros. in going in there. We have not put in any new floor on the second
story of the building. I have known Mr. Frank four or five years. His
character is good.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
I have come in contact with Mr. Frank in business and I have heard
my associates talk about him. I have seen him twenty or thirty times
during the past five years. I have not contributed anything to any fund
for his defense. I have not heard of any such fund.

DR. WM. OWENS, sworn for the Defendant.
I am a physician. I am also engaged in the real estate business. At
the request of the defense I went through certain experiments in the pen-
cil factory to ascertain how long it would take to go through Jim Con-
ley’s movements relative to moving the body of Mary Phagan. I kept
the time while the other men were going through with the performance.
I followed them and kept the time. Mr. Wilson of the Atlanta Baggage
Co. also kept time with me. Mr. Brent and Mr. Fleming enacted the per-
formance. The performance enacted was as follows: “12.56 o’clock,
Conley goes to cotton box from elevator stairs, gets a piece of cloth,
takes cloth back to where body lay and ties it just like a person that was
going to give out clothes on Monday, ties each corner, draws it in and
ties it, ties the four corners together, and runs right arm through cloth,
went to put it up on his shoulder and found he couldn’t get it up on
shoulder, it was too heavy, and he carried it that way on his arm, when
close to little dressing room in the metal department, he let the body fall;
he jumped, and he was scared and said: “Mr. Frank, you will have to
help me with this girl, she is heavy;” Frank comes and runs down from
the top of the steps, and after he comes down there he caught her by the
feet, and Conley laid hold of her by the shoulders, and when they got her
up that way, they backed, and Frank kind of put her on Conley, Frank
was nervous and trembling, too, and after walking a few steps, Frank let
her feet drop; then they picked her up and went to the elevator and sat
her on the elevator, and Frank pulled down the cords, and the elevator
wouldn’t go, and Frank said: “Wait, let me go in office and get the key;
and Frank goes in the office and gets a key and comes back and unlocks

the storage box, and after that he started the elevator down; the elevator
went down to the basement, and Frank said, “Come on,” and he opened
the door that led direct to the basement in front of the elevator, and car-
ried it out and laid her down, and Conley opened the cloth and rolled her
out on the floor, and Frank turned around and went on up the ladder, and
Conley carries the body back to where the body was found; Conley goes
around in front of the boiler, and notices her hat and slipper and a piece
of ribbon; and Conley said: “Mr. Frank, what am I going to do with
these things ?” and Mr. Frank said: “Leave them right there ;” and
Conley threw them in front of the boiler; Conley goes to the elevator,
and Frank come on up and stepped off at the first floor, and Frank
hits Conley a blow on the chest which run him against the elevator; Frank
stumbles out of elevator as it nears second floor, Frank goes and washes
his hands, and comes into the private office, and they sit down in the pri-
vate office, Frank rubbing his hands on the back of his hair; Frank hap-
pened to look out of the door, and said: “My God, there is Emma Clarke
and Corinthia Hall;” Frank runs back; Frank says: “Come over here,
Jim, I have got to put you in this wardrobe;” Frank puts Conley in
wardrobe; Conley stayed there quite a while; Frank: “You got in a
tight place;” ‘ Conley: “Yes, sir;” Frank: ” You did very well; ” Frank
goes in the hall and comes back and lets Conley out of the wardrobe;
Frank made him sit down; Conley sits down; Frank reaches on table and
gets a box of cigarettes and matches, takes out cigarette and match,
and hands Conley box of cigarettes; Conley lights cigarette, and com-
menced smoking, and hands Frank back box of cigarettes; Frank
puts cigarettes back in his pocket and takes it out; Frank: “You
can have these;” Conley reaches over and takes box of cigarettes
and sticks them in his pocket; Frank: “Can you write?” Conley:
“Yes, sir; a little bit;” Frank takes out his pencil and sits down;
Conley sits down at table; Frank dictates notes, Conley taking paper that
Frank gave him; Conley writes one note; Frank says; “Turn over and
write again;” Conley turns over paper and writes again; Frank: “Turn
over again;” Conley turned over again and writes on next page; Frank:
“That is all right.” Frank reaches over and gets green piece of paper
and tells Conley what to write; Conley writes, Frank then lays it on his
desk, looks at Conley smiling and rubbing his hands, runs his hands in
his pocket and pulls out a roll of bills; Frank says: “There is $200.00.”
Conley takes the money and looks at it a little bit; Conley: ” I Mr. Frank,
don’t you pay another dollar when that watchman comes, I’ll pay him
myself.” Frank: “All right, I don’t see what you want a watch for,
either; that big fat wife of mine, she wanted me to buy her an automo-
bile, and I wouldn’t do it; (pause) I will tell you the best way. You go
down in the basement; you saw that package that is on the floor in front
of the elevator; take a lot of that trash and make up a fire and burn it.”
Conley: “All right, Mr. Frank, you come down with me and I will go.”
Frank: ” There is no need of my going down there, and I haven’t got any
business down there.” Conley: “Mr. Frank, you are a white man and

you done it, and I am not going down there and burn it myself.” (Pause).
Frank: “Let me see that money.” Frank takes money and puts it in his
pocket. Conley: “Is this the way you do things?” (Pause). Frank
turned around in his chair, looks at money, and looks back at Conley, and
throws his hands and looks up. Frank: “Why should I hang, I have
wealthy people in Brooklyn.” Conley: “Mr. Frank, what about me?”
Frank: “It is alright about you, don’t you worry about this thing; you
must go back to your work on Monday, like you have never known any-
thing, and keep your mouth shut, if you get